Serious question for Sebigboss

[Genom]

A few comments from my own experiences with the subject.

Some of my German friends were coming over to visit on holiday, after making the mistake of watching Faulty Towers (We all know which episode I think) the night before we picked some of them up from the airport this subject came up. What I found interesting is that Auschwitz was a school trip for them in their youth, the basic message delivered was "This is what your forefathers did, don't do it again!"

A different German friend who lives in this country now (who I regularly ask how to pronounce things for my Teutonic and WW2 German army) is also an avid fan of re-enactment and history. I do medieval stuff myself but she didn't see any problems with WW2 reenactment, there is a group that does WW2 German for shows in the UK, but like our Danish friend said on here back home it's the younger people who have the problem with it. The people who lived through it seem to think it is a good idea, let others see what it was like during those times.

Finally, about the French. All the ones I've met love 'Allo Allo'

[Ace of Spades]

If you happen to be referring to me; I'm Dutch, not Danish 
But don't worry; I'm not easily offended... although... 

Cheers,
Rob

[Last Hussar]

'Allo 'Allo has been sold round the world, and dubbed to the local 'foriegn accent'

Apparently the German TV execs laughed all the way through the episodes they were shown.  Wiping the tears from their eyes they said 'Its brilliant, but we'd never be able to show it'.

[FierceKitty]

What bothers me is the tendency of so many of these Disney atrocity experiences (if I may so term the package tour version) is the effect they so often have of "That was then, it couldn't happen again". It's so easy when you've got such real monsters in your past to ignore the ones in your present; very convenient for the dragon to remind people how bad things were under Grendel.
Mmmmm...from memory...."The one thing the animals were sure of was that they did not want Jones back again."

[Steeleye]

I have hesitated on joining in this debate because I think that a lot of people won't like to hear what I have to say and the way I say it.

It is too popular nowadays to judge the actions of people in the past by the values of today. It has also become popular to denigrate the actions of people who were only defending themselves against an aggressor, we only have to examine what Israel is accused of by certain sections of the media and chattering classes.

First WWII.

Two things that I was taught at my mother's knee; she'd been born (so family history or myth claims) during a Zeppelin raid and had bombs dropped on her by the Germans twenty or so years later. She also worked for the British Military Government in Germany post WWII.

'You can't trust a fat German'.

'The Hun is either at your throat or at your feet'.

To be honest when I served in Germany back in the 70's I found most Germans to be no better and no worse than any one else.

A few other things I'd like to point out on Germany and German's.

The Nazis were voted into power by the German people...several times. Oddly about the only city that didn't whole heatedly support the Nazis was Berlin.

It has to be remembered that during the 20th century most of the countries of Europe were either preparing for a war with Germany, at war with Germany, or recovering from a war with Germany.

Check out grave yards in Belgium. 'Shot by the Germans 1914-1918', 'Shot by the Germans 1940-1945'. Even in Germany I think it unlikely you'll find any gave markers saying, 'Shot by the British'.

People should remember, before they go on about how terrible the British/Allies were, that no supposed atrocities carried out by either the Western Allies or the Soviets would have happened had not Germany invaded Poland in 1939.

On the other hand I always say that Hitler wasn't all bad...he did at least halt my mother's political ambitions...Mrs Thatcher would have looked like a liberal subversive next to my mother!

Now for the concentration camps...

The Germans used the name Concentration Camp as a cover for their DEATH CAMPS, you cannot compare the two.

First if you read any of the contemporary literature, you will find that the Boars weren't the most highly regarded of people. There treatment of the native peoples and foreign nationals working to develop the Boar state's natural resources (so the Boars could buy all those Mauser rifles, Maxim machine guns and Krupp artillery pieces) were to British eyes uncivilised in the extreme.

Let me also remind people that it was the Boars who set up fun things like 'Apartheid' a few years latter.

With typical military 'common sense' the British army put injured officers in charge of the Concentration camps, who basically left the Boars to organise themselves.

The Boars, who were used to living in widely isolated farmsteads had little concept of hygiene and sanitation so it wasn't surprising that cholera and other really unpleasant diseases swept through the camps. The camp commandants, who you remember had most likely been shot my Boars and were not trained to the same high standard as officers today, most likely thought, 'good residence' and quite frankly left them to die.

However, all this was reported in the British newspapers. By the time the 'Ladies of Good Works' had finished with the camps they had better public health than most large cities in Britain...strangely this is rarely reported by the 'Evil British Invented the Concentration Camp Brigade'.

The question of the inmates of the concentration camps being starved to death is a red herring, I think, most likely thought up be a Boar propagandist. While I'm not saying that it didn't happen, I would suggest that it wasn't a matter of policy or as wide spread as some would have you believe.

For all the British Empire's perceived faults, it has to remember that when we left we left behind the rule of law and the seed of democratic government. It's unfortunate that the native peoples didn't grasp this gift with both hands or had it snatched away from them by their own leaders. However we can be proud of the fact that we were instrumental in forming the worlds biggest parliamentary democracy, India.

Almost finally, (thank gods I hear you say) no nation is entirely black or white, they are all shades of grey. Some are dark grey some are light grey and others firmly in the middle.

Let me finish by saying that there's a good reason why the only two subjects on which discussion is forbidden in the officer's mess' of the British Army (and I suspect RN and RAF) are politics and religion. Some topics are just too divisive to be talked about on an open forum.

[barbarian]

I think colonialism is the worst thing that happened to humanity.
You're way of seeing it is really really a whit-european consideration.

Modern capitalism just exists because WE (our ancestors ) made triangular commerce : Stealing human beings in Africa, to send them work and steal resources (mainly gold and silver, but wood too...) in south America, back to square one, where the money generated went in Dutch banks. Those banks permitted the industrial revolution in United Kingdoms, making loans to the british just-born industry.

I find this offensive :
"It's unfortunate that the native peoples didn't grasp this gift with both hands or had it snatched away from them by their own leaders."
You cannot build a country which main resources are drained away to a colonialist power.

For me, colonialism have set the actual situation, and all European power should be ashamed and grateful toward their former colonies.

(BTW I'm french, my dad was born in Madagascar from a French colon, and my Mom's mom was a colon in Morocco too, so I really know the point of view of my grand-parents about "we brought them civilisation and look what they have done about it..." : I find it disgusting.)

To go back to the first thread, I think that Humans have done awful things from the beginning, and as truly awful the Nazis were, I think there was and always will be atrocities in our history : I don't trust human nature.


You may be right about not speaking about politics...

[Sandinista]

"The Nazis were voted into power by the German people...several times"

Absolute bollocks, they never won power through an election Hitler gained power in January 1933 when asked to form a government by Hindenburg, after several other coalition attempts had failed. He then suppressed his opponents and seized total power.

The Nazi's largest share of vote was in July 32 was 37% up fro 18% in 1930. In the November 1933 elections their share of vote had fallen to 33%, that was the last free election. The March 33 elections after massive suppression of opposition parties post Reichstag fire they still failed to win a majority - 43%.

But as the Daily Mail has shown this week why bother with the truth if it doesn't match your blinkered world view

[sebigboss79]

Straight up- this is a touchy subject.  I think (hope) Sebigboss will take it in the spirit in which it is meant, which is in friendship.

80 years ago your country had a period of, shall we say, collective lunacy.  There is now a whole hobby dedicated to making entertainment out of the consequences, and discussion about the technical points.  Does this ever feel a bit weird?

Interestingly there was a major debate when the first such pieces surfaced. A former member of the Council of Jews in Germany spoke on the matter.

For quite a while he pondered the numerous achievements through the centuries that are attached with "being german". Then he shortly expressed his sadness that Germany and Germans are reduced to 12 years of collective idiocy. He (like me) argues also that support for the Führer was 44. something % at best, leaving over 50 % actually against him. (My granddad joined the airforce as they were the only ones to employ him as a electrician and he became a radio operator. By an administrative mistake he was sent on holiday instead of joining his unit in Stalingrad!)

The Jewish Gentleman then said: ... so concerning the ridiculing of Hitler and the Nazis you are asking if you may do that? I say no, you HAVE TO.



As it has been mentioned before many nations have their bad spots, my Social Science teacher keeps arguing the empire killed more people annualy than Adolf in 12. Churchill himself was quite fond of the idea to nervegas Rebels in the middle east. Yet we call Churchill a hero and Adolf a bastard (or worse). I think we need to rethink ourselves on these matters. No one is free from guilt but some people realise it sooner than others.

I would never consider your question in any other manner Hussar. In fact I am the first to chime in on a good German bashing because I realised some of our traits are indeed puzzling others - to say the least.

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

 

[sebigboss79]

Another Jewish Gentleman left Germany in the 60s. When my local football club signed two Jewish players some jerks went to the training grounds to utter their anti-semitic opinion. Apparently they were displeased witht he teams performance the day before (in which both players did not participate).

Besides a media outcry both players made statements concerning a few idiots should not get a stage and I had a discussion with said Jewish Gent. He would like to encourage the young generation of Germns to be proud of their country.  We agreed these things were bad and we must never forget them but 'inheriting the guilt' of our forefathers and collective punishment are more than counter-productive.

As I said before: Everyone has some bad spots here and there. I have no prejudice against any race, nationality, religion, gender and whatnot. But i certainly reserve the right to call an idiot an idiot. I am not talking about everyday stupidity but about behavioural patterns. Hard to pinpint it but I guess everyone knows what I mean.

And being an idiot is, to my knowledge, not associated with any particular religion, gender, race, colour or whatnot.

[fsn]

To Steeleye. I think you and I are broadly in agreement, though you are better informed about the Boers than I. I fell out with them when the killed Raffles.

To Barbarian: I think you have also encapsulated my thoughts.I assume when your grand-parents said "we brought them civilisation and look what they have done about it..." they were being genuine. They saw people who were without the benefits of trains, modern medicine, Christianity and the benevolent rule by a benevolent European power, so popped in to civilise them. If that happened to increase the wealth of the European power, then that's fine. The lovely European power saw these wild children and settled upon them a paternal regime, and were quite surprised when the poor people objected. Nowadays the view of empire is that it is an evil thing. The view in the C19 was quite different. 

[Fenton]

Another Jewish Gentleman left Germany in the 60s. When my local football club signed two Jewish players some jerks went to the training grounds to utter their anti-semitic opinion. Apparently they were displeased witht he teams performance the day before (in which both players did not participate).

things like that happened in the UK as well, when Chelsea signed Paul Canoville in the early 80's he was Chelsea's first non white player...some of the Chelsea supporters refused to acknowledge any goals he scored and heaped a lot of racist abuse on him. The supporters went as far to publish their own league tables which showed the result of the game without any goals scored by Canoville. So if Chelsea drew 1-1 and Canoville scored the Chelsea goal then the supporters regarded this as a 1-0 defeat

There will always be idiots no matter what country or whatever the era of history

[Ace of Spades]

It's good to see we all agree on the basic principles of this discussion which I think means the political thorn is now officially removed; huzzah!

A point on the Boer War subject I would like to make though (historical points of view/facts can still safely be discussed I guess?) is that I really don't believe the Boers had little concept of hygiëne and sanitation. What is absolutely sure is that a lot of them lived pretty well isolated (the so-called 'Takhaar' Boers) and therefore their resistance to humanly transferred diseases was well below average. The fact that this contributed to countless deaths when forced together in a relatively small space with minimal hygiene is a logical consequence. I for one would never blame the British military for not recognizing this since the mere existence of bacteria was hardly recognized by the time.

Barbarians observations on European economics seem to be cutting some corners in my opinion; slavery (as much as we reject it today) was a 'normal' trade during the 17th and especially the 18th century and benefitted indeed mainly the European countries. Let's not forget though that under the Roman empire slavery was also common practice as well as it has been throughout history and all over the world and let's face it; in different horrible forms still is! The gold and silver taken from South America was used by Spain to finance its religious wars throughout Europe; still the Spanish court kept going bankrupt time and time again. So were did this money go? Certainly not to the Dutch banks; the Dutch were doing their utmost to fight the Spanish... Spanish money was spent throughout Europe; raising troops (though usually the colonels belonged to the few who usually got paid) buying armament and securing political back-up in its vazal states. In the end; Spanish gold was squandered all over Europe both in payments and loot to the other party. Dutch banks were filled with money made all over the world; large amounts were actually earned within Europe transferring wood and grain from the Baltic and Russia partly from buying (yes, these products were bought from the indigenous people throughout the 17th and first half of the 18th century) cocoa, tea and spices all over the world and selling them throughout Europe. The Dutch were in no position to really colonize any lands until the late 18th century (and lost most pretty quickly to the British who 'guarded' them for us during the occupation of the Netherlands under Napoleon) and only opened trade- and resupplying posts along foreign coasts. British gold as far as I know was pretty well gone by the end of the Napoleonic wars from paying Russia, Prussia and Austria to keep them in the fight against Napoleon. The Industrial Revolution was payed for by entrepreneurs who made their own money (indeed not always in the most ethical ways, then again... what has changed?).

Please; feel free to comment; if anybody wants to correct these points I am open to discussion but it might be wise to open a new topic then?

As to the Germans; they've always been good neighbours to us; except for that one short period when they came in uninvited

Cheers,
Rob

[sebigboss79]

As to the Germans; they've always been good neighbours to us; except for that one short period when they came in uninvited

Polish? We came more often to France and only once to Poland. Took a terrible beating in the second half....

One of my friends here is Polish as well (Jarek) and we agreed the Polish and the Germans make the best beer and sausages and the Germans just came over because we were jealous of that and the sexy women 

Jarek then says this made the Polish men upset and they kicked us out..... 

Interesting statistics: If a German male marries a non German wife she is Polish in almost 70 % of the cases...Strangely my Ex IS Polish.... 

[OldenBUA]

Polish? We came more often to France and only once to Poland. Took a terrible beating in the second half....

This time on the other side, SBB, it's the Dutch we're talking about. And yes, also a one time event. (Disregarding the annual beach invasion, ofcourse).