Are these the final rules?

[grubman]

I’m new to this forum, so I guess I’ll give a little introduction before going into the real topic.  The introduction isn’t important, so feel free to skip right over it, its just the obligatory thing to do on a new forum.

Introduction to me…

I’m a long time gamer (role playing, miniature wargames, board games)…but aren’t we all.  I recently cleaned my game room of all my 25-28mm scale miniatures (made a small fortune on eBay…but that’s another story ).  In all honesty, I got sick of all the room they took, the amount of handling they require, and the fragility of the models.

One of the deciding factors was when I got into the board game Battlelore a few years back.  Needless to say I painted my miniatures.  I found the scale much more fun to paint, the appearance of the smaller figures on the board much more dramatic, and the ability to store entire armies inside a single plastic plano box to be awesome.  I was sold overnight on smaller scales and never looked back.

Recently, on a thread on RPGnet, someone was asking about help finding a good “dungeon crawling game”.  I felt I could contribute since Warhammer Quest, Advanced Heroquest, and Descent all sit on my shelf, and I’ve done enough research on the topic myself to offer some advice and opinions. 

In that thread someone mentioned Dungeon World.  Now I’m a huge fan of Germy’s stuff.  I’ve also always loved the miniatures of Pendrakens…but I’ve always been leery of going with 10mm before.  I had never been pointed to this dungeon line before and was instantly taken with the thought of a new project and the challenge of the new scale.  So I made my purchase (the dungeon core set and the expansion).

People who know me online are aware that I’m a bit of a…er…how do I put it…obsessive fan when I become involved in something.  My urge right now is to order about a million of those miniatures and start writing adventures, campaigns, or even rules to use them…which brings me to Dungeon World, and the real question of this thread.  Please don’t think me an ass for asking such blunt questions and offering harsh critiques, they are put forth in an effort to really play, appreciate, and expand the game and the line of miniatures.

The real Question…

So, while I wait for my Dungeon sets to arrive, I’ve been reading over the Dungeon World rule books.

In all honesty I think they are great (or, should I say, potentially great).  I really like how Stephen has managed to streamline the rules into something that is easy to learn and seems easy to apply.  I’m also impressed with the amount of time taken to cover special rules for the myrid of scenery available for the dungeons. 

I like that the game proposes (careful use of that word) that Dungeon World can be played as a more traditional cooperative game as well as a competitive game.  Personally I have a billion RPGs when I want cooperation, so I’m mainly interested in competitive play.

Unfortunately I do have some problems, questions, and things that I’m wondering about in actual play.

First off, the game really needs a rewrite.  There are a couple sections on the PDF that are obviously in the wrong spot (“cover” comes to mind without looking at the rules).  Also there are a number of places where some concepts are mentioned briefly without any, or enough, explanation.  For example:

“A combined weapon attack is created by drawing an imaginary line between each model‟s kill zone, going back and forward between friend and foe until the line cannot be continued further. This must form a single contiguous link of kill zones, and all the dice for that melee are thrown as one roll.”

What?  I’ve been playing games for over 3 decades and I’m not sure what that means.  I can take a guess, but the summary sheet (and diagram) on the Boardgamegeek site seems to contradict what I thought. 

In any case, that’s just a sample.  I don’t think anyone in the hobby has to be talked down to, but rules do need to be clearly described and explained so there is no doubt that they will be understood.  I’ve never met a gamer who has complained about a rulebook giving too much explanation or too many examples of how rules work.

My second problem is that the game implies that players can create their own heroes…but there are no guidelines for doing this?

Related to this, is the question of game balance.  Is there a playtested formula used to determine hero and monster stats and special abilities? 

And finally, also related to the above questions…how does a Draken Master create his dungeon?  How does the DM determine what monsters are a fair challenge for the players in a cooperative game?  How does he manage his monsters in a competitive game?

I’m especially concerned since I want to run this as a competitive game where there is an actual tactical, and fair battle to win.  There needs to be some sort of point cost or rating for monsters and some balanced rules as to how, where, and when they can be placed.  There also needs to be some balancing system of placing rewards.

In all honesty I see a great set of concise rules for running some fun tactical battles in a cool setting, with some really neat miniatures…but I don’t see how to actually implement these combat rules into a structured game that is balanced, challenging, fair and complete.

I see something I can run with a lot of hand waving and guesswork that might produce a fun session…or might not.

So help me out, are these rules being edited, playtested, rewritten, and fleshed out as I speak…or is this it? Right now I'm not sure if I can play this as is.     

[OldenBUA]

Since no one has replied so far, I'll give it a shot.

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: First let me say that I think I understand what you are saying with the rules being great, but leaving some questions afterwards. My advise for now would be to rummage around the Forum, and read some of the posts in the Dungeon board. Some of the things you ask have been asked before. Also you may find some explanation of how the rules came about. As far as I understand, it is still an ongoing project. If it is heading in the direction you are looking for, I have no idea. I think that background and storytelling figure more prominently than competitive play. But I don't know what has been done and can be done with this system. I would also like to see something in this direction. It would also be great for solo dungeoneering, which other people seem to like as well.

For a real answer, you'll probably have to wait until Sixsideddice (aka Steve/Stephen) reads your post.

[Leon]

For a real answer, you'll probably have to wait until Sixsideddice (aka Steve/Stephen) reads your post.

That'll be the best option, I'm sure Six will have the answers you're looking for. 

[sixsideddice]

Hi grubman,

I`ve literally just read this thread (was up all night writing and I need a gallon of coffee). I just wanted to let you know I`m on it... and will reply in full - and moresome, a bit later on today.

Cheers for now,

Six 

[sixsideddice]

I’m new to this forum, so I guess I’ll give a little introduction before going into the real topic.  The introduction isn’t important, so feel free to skip right over it, its just the obligatory thing to do on a new forum.

Hello grubman, and let me be one of the first to welcome you to the Pendraken Miniautes forum; I hope you have many many hundreds of happy hours ahead of you, sharing time with us old “dies hards”.

It`s always a hard thing to do when jumping onto a moving platform; as mentioned already, Dungeon World has been discussed, chewed over, and thrown back and forth from original concept to its current, yet ever evolving theme... and it`s still an ongoing process, hopefully tackled once and for all in the forthcoming Dungeon World Campaigns book, due to hand over to Leon at the end of April. However, one thing has remained a constant throughout, the core rules engine has remained pretty much intact through tried and tested play-testing and mathematical scrutiny, to devise maximum play potential and pleasure to the miniature collector and DW gamer.

Introduction to me…

I’m a long time gamer (role playing, miniature wargames, board games)…but aren’t we all.  I recently cleaned my game room of all my 25-28mm scale miniatures (made a small fortune on eBay…but that’s another story  ).  In all honesty, I got sick of all the room they took, the amount of handling they require, and the fragility of the models.

.....  don`t forget, not only the room they took up, but the sheer cost to keep collecting in that scale. There reaches a time in the standard 28mm gamers’ life when its simply not feasible to cram any more metal on his already over burdened shelf, and the end result is almost usually the same every time... sell them, swap them with a friend or store them away in the groaning attic. End result is that you have space once more on your shelves, but the prices have doubled, the figures are no longer metal throughout, but half plastic and even more flimsy than ever, and the prospect of collecting all over again in “that same old style” reminds you of a line from a classic cliché.

One of the deciding factors was when I got into the board game Battlelore a few years back.  Needless to say I painted my miniatures.  I found the scale much more fun to paint, the appearance of the smaller figures on the board much more dramatic, and the ability to store entire armies inside a single plastic plano box to be awesome.  I was sold overnight on smaller scales and never looked back.

... yes, in 10mm you have practically all the choices you might normally find in the larger scales; plus price makes purchasing your entire collection very reasonable as it dawns on you, you can collect everything you need for your chosen genre of game, and for far less than it would normally cost you to collect a single army in, for instance, 28mm!

Recently, on a thread on RPGnet, someone was asking about help finding a good “dungeon crawling game”.  I felt I could contribute since Warhammer Quest, Advanced Heroquest, and Descent all sit on my shelf, and I’ve done enough research on the topic myself to offer some advice and opinions.

I know all three titles you mention, intimately in fact. I worked on two of them.

In that thread someone mentioned Dungeon World.  Now I’m a huge fan of Germy’s stuff.  I’ve also always loved the miniatures of Pendrakens…but I’ve always been leery of going with 10mm before.  I had never been pointed to this dungeon line before and was instantly taken with the thought of a new project and the challenge of the new scale.  So I made my purchase (the dungeon core set and the expansion).

... it’s an addictive choice you’ll never regret having made, trust me.

People who know me online are aware that I’m a bit of a…er…how do I put it…obsessive fan when I become involved in something.  My urge right now is to order about a million of those miniatures and start writing adventures, campaigns, or even rules to use them…which brings me to Dungeon World, and the real question of this thread.  Please don’t think me an ass for asking such blunt questions and offering harsh critiques, they are put forth in an effort to really play, appreciate, and expand the game and the line of miniatures.

Don`t worry, threads like this always interest me, and receive keen attention for me.

The real Question…

So, while I wait for my Dungeon sets to arrive, I’ve been reading over the Dungeon World rule books.

In all honesty I think they are great (or, should I say, potentially great).  I really like how Stephen has managed to streamline the rules into something that is easy to learn and seems easy to apply.  I’m also impressed with the amount of time taken to cover special rules for the myrid of scenery available for the dungeons.

The rules were originally conceived as a personal project with no deeper drive or motive involved, beyond making a good game which could be enjoyed with family and friends. Only later was the idea expanded for Pendraken Miniature gamers to enjoy as a whole, as it became clear through play-testing at local clubs and groups, that it had merit beyond its initial intended scope.

I like that the game proposes (careful use of that word) that Dungeon World can be played as a more traditional cooperative game as well as a competitive game.  Personally I have a billion RPGs when I want cooperation, so I’m mainly interested in competitive play.

Played AS THE RULES ARE WRITTEN, allowing Heroes to “re-spawn” on portals, while the Draken Master tries to ward off the Heroes with his monstersm and gaining Victory points for kills (like in Descent); then the game can be played TOTALLY as a competitive experience.

Unfortunately I do have some problems, questions, and things that I’m wondering about in actual play.

First off, the game really needs a rewrite.  There are a couple sections on the PDF that are obviously in the wrong spot (“cover” comes to mind without looking at the rules).  Also there are a number of places where some concepts are mentioned briefly without any, or enough, explanation.

I agree, if DW had been written commercially, going through my editor, publisher and printer, everything would have been streamline and formatted for total ease of reading and aesthetic value. However, the rules were a “freebie” for collectors of the Pendraken Miniatures range, written between real paying work; and offered over thus so that others might share the game as an alternative to having to go out and pay a King`s ransom for something long, complicated, possibly contrived, generic, and with no feel for the exquisite actual Pendraken range.. and Germy`s amazing dungeon assortment.

However, the forthcoming Dungeon World Campaigns book should address your fears. DWC is an amalgamation with Dungeon World and a new “sister” set of rules for conducting fantasy skirmishes, and mass battles - alongside the original game.

For example:
Quote
“A combined weapon attack is created by drawing an imaginary line between each model‟s kill zone, going back and forward between friend and foe until the line cannot be continued further. This must form a single contiguous link of kill zones, and all the dice for that melee are thrown as one roll.”

*chuckles*   this one always trips up a few people at the start. Once you read a few of the older threads already written in the Dungeon forum, and play your first game (when your stuff arrives in the post), you`ll get it immediately... and if you don`t just write again and I`ll take time to explain it to you fully. It would be almost impossible for me to show you how it all works when you haven`t actually got your dungeon or miniatures in your hands yet *Patience young padawan*

What?  I’ve been playing games for over 3 decades and I’m not sure what that means.  I can take a guess, but the summary sheet (and diagram) on the Boardgamegeek site seems to contradict what I thought.

Hmmm, I guess maybe I`ll have to explain that one after all.

In any case, that’s just a sample.  I don’t think anyone in the hobby has to be talked down to, but rules do need to be clearly described and explained so there is no doubt that they will be understood.  I’ve never met a gamer who has complained about a rulebook giving too much explanation or too many examples of how rules work.

Indubitably.

My second problem is that the game implies that players can create their own heroes…but there are no guidelines for doing this?

I think you have answered your own question already. Quote: “My urge right now is to order about a million of those miniatures and start writing adventures, campaigns, or even rules to use them” DW states throughout, that the stats provided are guidelines for creating your own Monsters and Heroes. The system is so simple it only takes seconds in most cases to create your own. Examples beyond the ones already offered in DW are really not necessary you will find, with further reading.

Related to this, is the question of game balance.  Is there a playtested formula used to determine hero and monster stats and special abilities?

The game is old school... balanced points systems didn’t even come in until the advent of Games Workshop. Personally I LOVE just guessing the balance for yourself. There’s a great sense of achievement about getting it right. Much like the Dungeon Master in a Role Playing Game has to do all the time, unless using a pre-made adventure of course. However, DWC does have a points value list added to help gamers with large scale games.

And finally, also related to the above questions…how does a Draken Master create his dungeon?  How does the DM determine what monsters are a fair challenge for the players in a cooperative game?  How does he manage his monsters in a competitive game?

Same as above... you make it up; just like a Dungeon Master has to do in a standard RPG.

I’m especially concerned since I want to run this as a competitive game where there is an actual tactical, and fair battle to win.  There needs to be some sort of point cost or rating for monsters and some balanced rules as to how, where, and when they can be placed.  There also needs to be some balancing system of placing rewards.

I fear DW may not be able to help you there. My best advice would be to play a few games, and (like all had to do three decades back) make up your own points values for Monsters and stuff; if you wish to take the game to a truly competitive level... or just use Dungeons and Dragons to play your Dungeons crawls... 10mm figures work well using original, 1st Ed, 2nd Ed, 3.1/3.5 or 4th Edition D&D rules. I know, I`ve tried it many times, and I know others here have too.

In all honesty I see a great set of concise rules for running some fun tactical battles in a cool setting, with some really neat miniatures…but I don’t see how to actually implement these combat rules into a structured game that is balanced, challenging, fair and complete.

I guess it was never meant to be really. Beyond playing it competitively as it stands. Which is always an option mentioned.

I see something I can run with a lot of hand waving and guesswork that might produce a fun session…or might not.

So help me out, are these rules being edited, playtested, rewritten, and fleshed out as I speak…or is this it? Right now I'm not sure if I can play this as is.

I think DW is like marmite... you either love it or hate it.

Yes, the rules are a living engine and as such, are customizable and adaptable, and adjustable by each and every player, and group of friends, sitting round a table playing together... much like that wonderful old RPG  Tunnels  & Trolls.

Dungeon World is really a scaffold, a collection of ideas (the bulk of the work done) upon which individual players can expand and extrapolate their own input into the game to create their own unique experience...  both satisfying and rewarding.

Six :-))

[sixsideddice]

Ta Nik 

the lines kept vanishing under the window LOL

[grubman]

Thank you very much for the thorough answer.  It gives me a very good idea of the purpose you have for the game and the (non-mechanical) design philosophy.

I don’t want to give the wrong impression, I’m not one of those guys who needs everything spoon fed to him (creatively and rules-wise).  I’m actually pretty “anti establishment” when it comes to the direction the RPG “industry” has taken this last decade.  While I’m sort of known as a RPG guru, when it comes to actual play I still mostly play my old boxed sets from the early 80s.  I’m a firm believer is a concise set of guidelines and a strong framework, but lots and lots of room to wiggle and create.

I also understand most of your development comments as well.  While I can’t boast working on any really impressive “mainstream” titles like you have, I have managed to get 2 RPGs published by small press companies, and several supplements.  So I understand how things take time and grow and change, especially when more and more people become involved in that play.

Honestly, I have absolutely no problem taking the rules and running with them, developing dungeon scenarios, creating monsters, and house rules when needed.  I just wasn’t sure if that was final goal and intent of the rules.

I guess most of my questions and concerns are based around competitive play.  What I really wanted to do with this was sit down with 2 teams of my friends and duke it out for dominance.  So far, the only dungeon crawl game to really do this is Descent, a game with its own share of problems and shortcomings.  In order to do that, I feel I would really need more concrete rules and balances, otherwise the delvers will feel that the DM side stacked things against them…or feel that the GM made it too easy so they would win (like all too many RPGs these days where the GM is so darn afraid to kill anyone).  I guess, in this instance, I was looking for more of a strategic tactical board/miniature game type experience.

As it is, I’m going to watch the development of DWC with interest, and it certainly sounds like the complete intertwined line will be something of interest to me.  I’d ask when it will be available…but I have a feeling that is a question you get a lot, and are probably sick of it   

I do have other plans for the Dungeons set, whether Dungeon World ends up working for me or not.  Beyond the joy of painting it, I do have a large adventure planned for it (using B/X D&D 1981), and I have another project that I’m debating (but I don’t want to even mention it, because it’s involved and I don’t want to obligate myself publicly…because, you know, it’s embarrassing if you don’t follow through).

In any case, thanks again for all the answers and the time it took to write them down.  Thank you very much for the free game and all the effort it took in getting it together in the first place, and I’ll look forward to further developments of Dungeon World with anticipation.

(man, I thought this second post was going to be short )

[Luddite]

Can't wait for my set to arrive!

That is all.

Move along now.

[Cyril]

Hey grubman, glad to see a new hardcore gamer found its way here
Even though I guess Six covered pretty much everything, I would add you should take DW as you took Rogue Trader in the 80's : this is the woodstock of miniature gaming. Don't expect to get a nice clean and balanced game. When you plan a scenario, play it yourself to "feel" it. And when you actually play, it's your job as the DM to balance the game on-the-fly. (but I guess you already know all of that

Now if you ever create some material, please share with us !
(batreps and pictures are welcome too )

[nikharwood]

Even though I guess Six covered pretty much everything, I would add you should take DW as you took Rogue Trader in the 80's : this is the woodstock of miniature gaming. Don't expect to get a nice clean and balanced game. When you plan a scenario, play it yourself to "feel" it. And when you actually play, it's your job as the DM to balance the game on-the-fly.

Couldn't agree more - worked wonders with my daughters:
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=1454.0

Did a load of stuff on-the-fly...and we all had fun. Job done. 

[sixsideddice]

you should take DW as you took Rogue Trader in the 80's : this is the woodstock of miniature gaming. Don't expect to get a nice clean and balanced game. When you plan a scenario, play it yourself to "feel" it. And when you actually play, it's your job as the DM to balance the game on-the-fly.

Brilliantly put Cyril. I think you`ve just made a perfect prècis.... word perfectly, the key philosophy behind the while game idea.


Six