Scale. Troop Quality, and other animals

[BlitzkriegWonderer]

Hello,

I am thinking of getting the rules but there are 3 things I need.

(1)  1:1   1 tank=1 tank.
(2)  Does it take troop quality into account. i.e. does it represent the results seen in ww2 where 1 tiger can take out many allied tanks.
(3) Does it have a points system

Thanks so much!

[Ithoriel]

Hi BlitzkriegWonderer,

welcome to the forum.

Others may disagree but here's my take on it.

1) You can certainly play 1 tank = 1 tank but it's designed to be one tank model equals a troop/ zug/ etc. Some of the abstractions make less sense at 1:1 IMHO.

2) a) I'm not convinced Tigers took out quite as many Allied tanks as some people seem to think. The real German AFV tank killer is the StuG III.

b) But Tigers are tougher than Shermans, if that's what you mean, and dish out more damage over a longer range.

c) It has a points system and a minimum and maximum number of units of each type you can field per complete 1000 points plus some maximums of the number that can be fielded in a whole force.

Hope that helps.

[Shedman]

Welcome to the forum

In BKCIV a Tiger I can destroy up to 20 Shermans in a single turn.

A Tiger I has 5 attacks out to 100cm

A Sherman can take 4 Hits and saves on 5+

So a Tiger I can destroy a Sherman with one shot

The German commander has a CV of 10 and gets boosted by a Recce Unit to CV 11

As long as the commander rolls equal to or under his CV then he can give the Tiger I a shoot order

If the commander rolls Double 1 then he can give 2 shoot orders

This gives a potential for 20 shoot orders

Personally if I rolled 10 Double 1s I'd stop playiong and buy myself a lottery ticket instead

[fred.]

Mr Probability would like a word. 

As you note the number of orders is nonsensical with the requirement for repeated double 1s. And you need to make your hit rolls, and the targets need to fail their saves. 

But yes the rules allow for a Tiger to be very effective against Shermans - but it doesn't have it all its own way, not least due to opportunity fire from the Sherman's which might cause a call, but is very likely to cause a suppression of the Tiger, ending its run of shooting. 

[fred.]

Going back to the original question about quality - this is model in 2 ways in BKC

1) unit stats, so in the example Tigers have more hits, better save, more attack dice and more range than a Sherman
2) Command values - better quality / more experienced forces have higher command values which overall allows them to do more as they will get more activations per turn. 

This is particularly seen in early war, where the French have some good tanks (for the period) but poor command, the Germans have some average tanks, but good command. 

[BlitzkriegWonderer]

The reason I ask is because a lot of rules seem to distill effectiveness down to hardware, and forget the software. Battlegroup (think it was called) is a good example of that.

But the scale of 1 tank representing many is off-putting for me. Could go down the multi-based 3mmm route...

Does the system have any variant for other conflicts on the way?

[steve_holmes_11]

Depending on your scenario (Tigers in ETO are likely to be defending).

Your Tiger likely doesn't need to manoeuvre, and may be in cover.

A couple of additional force multipliers.

[pierre the shy]

Just make the Tiger crew an offer they can't refuse.....

[BlitzkriegWonderer]

But what about troop quality (experience/skill/training)? Does it in any way have factors for that or are they inherent in other values?

[Raider4]

You can certainly play 1 tank = 1 tank but it's designed to be one tank model equals a troop/ zug/ etc. Some of the abstractions make less sense at 1:1 IMHO.

It's the abstractions for tanks especially that don't make sense to me.

A Sherman (75) platoon in the US army is 5 tanks. In the British Italian army it's 3 tanks. But in BkC they use the same unit.

In NWE there's no such thing as a Sherman (75) only platoon. They've all got a Firefly attached. Until you get into later 1945 when some some had two Fireflies.

There are other things like that that make my teeth itch when people talk about 1 unit = 1 troop/platoon etc..

[BlitzkriegWonderer]

Yeah, that and when my "unit" of 5 tanks shoots and all 5 of yours blow up. Or even worse, when a unit magically self-repairs for no reason whatsoever.

[Ithoriel]

Yeah, that and when my "unit" of 5 tanks shoots and all 5 of yours blow up. Or even worse, when a unit magically self-repairs for no reason whatsoever.

Vehicles are not only dead or alive. Stunned crews can recover, damaged tracks can be repaired under fire, vision blocks damaged by splinters can be replaced, etc., etc.. I know wargamers like to think of every casualty they inflict on their opponents forces as dead but in real life the dead are far outnumbered by the physically or mentally incapacitated. Many of whom will return to the fight given time.


Also when your 5 tanks fire at 5 of mine it's unlikely that a) all of yours have a target unless you are fighting on a billiard table, (which is one reason why the actual number of tanks isn't necessarily important) and b) that all 5 of mine are blown up. They may be brewed up or abandoned damaged or retreated off the battlefield. What's important is that for whatever reason they have been rendered out of action for the remainder of the game.

Warmaster, BKC, CWC and FWC are designed around outputs not inputs, top down not bottom up. So what matters is not the minutiae of hardware and wetware but the overall effects they have.

I happen to think BKC achieves a reasonable approximation of WW2 warfare as I understand it, YMMV!

On multiple 3mm minis on a base .... I have all the minis I need (and more  )  for D-Day-to-the-Rhine games using multiple miniatures to a base. If I ever get them painted!

[Big Insect]

The reason I ask is because a lot of rules seem to distill effectiveness down to hardware, and forget the software. Battlegroup (think it was called) is a good example of that.

But the scale of 1 tank representing many is off-putting for me. Could go down the multi-based 3mmm route...

Does the system have any variant for other conflicts on the way?

You can play BKCIV on a 1:1 basis? - it will work just as well as 1=many - you might want to use the 'Kills Stay On' optional rule to do so, but it will play perfectly happily.

There is a points system, and there is even a list calculator app in production/testing at present (release TBC)

Can a Tiger destroy multiple Sherman? - yes it can - but as others have stated it's not guaranteed as it depends upon you ambushing the Sherman's and getting a good 'head-start' on killing them before they Opportunity fire back at you or  discharge smoke and try and hide!

Are there other sets of rules like BKCIV? - Yes - we already have Cold War Commander II - covering mechanized warfare from 1946-c.2000 (although 1990 is the primary end date) and like BKCIV we have a lot of additional army lists on-line (on this very forum) and a lot of optional rules. You can also 'extend' BKCIV back to cover the Spanish Civil War (we have a special rules publication for that) and forward to cover the Korean War (we have a suppliment to cover that).
We also have Future War Commander (FWC) which is (as the name states) a set of Sci-Fi ground orientated micro-armour rules. FWCII is a work 'in progress' due for a Q2 launch in 2025.
All 3 sets of rules use the same basic Core Commander Mechanisms - so you Command, Move, Shoot, take Hits and Suppression etc. in the same manner - making it easy to transfer between sets - you just need to get to grips with the different specific mechanisms of each time-period.

I hope that is helpful?
Cheers
Mark
NB: I forgot about quality - the answer is Yes - the core lists assume most units are of an 'Average' quality - but you can pay extra points to upgrade them to Veteran or Elite or Fanatical or deduct points to make them Conscript or Green/Raw etc. Each set of lists has additional special rules (but not too many) and there is a general aim that the army lists are guide-lines (staring point) and that Orders of Battle (OOBs) are preferred (by the BKC aficionados). Very detailed OOBs are available commercially - not from Pendraken - but from Micromark via Wargames Vault: https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/3426/MicroMark-Army-Lists

[BlitzkriegWonderer]

Thanks Mark, that is exactly the info I was looking for.