Replaying scenarios: pros and cons?

[John Cook]

What does doing a refight really mean?  It is it just an exercise in seeing who can roll better dice?

The geometry of dice, particularly the more faceted they are, the physics involved and environment in which they are thrown, can produce bizarre results.  Don't use dice. As random number generators they are indifferent at best.

[Ithoriel]

The geometry of dice, particularly the more faceted they are, the physics involved and environment in which they are thrown, can produce bizarre interesting results.  Use dice. As random number generators they are best.

FIFY

The tactile feel of them in your hand, the click and clatter as they roll, the banter as they stand on the pointy corner while balanced against the scenery. As integral to a good wargame as beer bottles, coffee cups and crisp packets on the table.

[Matt J]

I like dice!

Gives me something to blame when I lose!

[Ithoriel]

I like dice!

Gives me something to blame when I lose!

Indeed!

"I win because I am skillful, I lose because I am unlucky!"

[John Cook]

Dice are kids' stuff best left for games like Ludo and Snakes and Ladders

[Chris Pringle]

Pleased to see this post prompting such interesting discussion. Thanks for all the comments. It's had about 100 on various forums so I've updated the post with a summary of these for those who are interested:
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/2022/06/replaying-scenarios-pros-and-cons.html

Thanks also for the nice comments about BBB in general. Fred (in fact any of you) - just drop in at Oxford Wargames Society any Monday evening!

Chris

[John Cook]

Pleased to see this post prompting such interesting discussion. Thanks for all the comments.
Chris

Thank you for collating them all for us.  Interesting reading which just goes to show what pre-conceptions we have about lot of things.  On the subject of dice, since you mention my comment specifically (no problem with that at all in case you wonder), my problem is that they introduce a too large an element of chance for my taste, such that I actually gave up wargaming in the early 1980s.  When I discovered computer moderated wargaming in about 1990 it solved that problem for me, though it was a little while before I found something that met my preconceptions!  Anyway, that is the route I took and nothing I have seen in, what I will call 'traditional' wargaming, for want of a better term, tempts me to return to the old gods. 

[tony of TTT]

I don't know how much they have improved the computer generated random numbers but when I did some work with them back around 2000 or so they were crap and always biased toward runs of similar results. Personally, as one who worked with computers in one way or another in my job, the last thing I wanted to do was have them run my hobby too !

Dice work they way the rules design them to. It is quite possible to limit scope and variance while using dice based randomisation and to make more complex distributions than simple D6 throws to hit a target. The fact that many rule writers chose to ignore the possibilities isn't the fault of the tools.

[John Cook]

Your call entirely.  For me, dice are best used for craps.

[paulr]

Pleased to see this post prompting such interesting discussion. Thanks for all the comments. It's had about 100 on various forums so I've updated the post with a summary of these for those who are interested:
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/2022/06/replaying-scenarios-pros-and-cons.html

Thanks also for the nice comments about BBB in general. Fred (in fact any of you) - just drop in at Oxford Wargames Society any Monday evening!

Chris

Thanks for the interesting summary Chris

[steve_holmes_11]

Roughly adjacent to the discussion here:

ToFatLardies latest podcast discusses zooming out from the battle in the context of Henry Hyde's Wargame Campaigns book.

TooFatLardies Oddcast 51

[Chris Pringle]

On the subject of dice, since you mention my comment specifically (no problem with that at all in case you wonder), my problem is that they introduce a too large an element of chance for my taste, such that I actually gave up wargaming in the early 1980s.

No argument with your preferences, John. I was just surprised the subject was introduced at all, since my blog post hardly mentioned dice and its central topic is mechanism-agnostic.

[hammurabi70]

No argument with your preferences, John. I was just surprised the subject was introduced at all, since my blog post hardly mentioned dice and its central topic is mechanism-agnostic.

I introduced dice by posing the question:
What does doing a refight really mean?  It is it just an exercise in seeing who can roll better dice?

The question remains open in as much as determining what you are allowed to change and how you will assess the impact of the changes.  I am unconvinced that Chris's Blog addressed this. This is not an exercise in cynicism but a real inquiry; what are we really seeking to do during a refight and at what level - tactically, operationally or strategically.  Pickett's charge would have succeeded with a bit more artillery support OR a stronger and earlier attack on Little Round Top would have won the battle OR why are we fighting at Gettysburg?

Your call entirely.  For me, dice are best used for craps.

So your computer moderated systems are purely deterministic or has a randomiser that you cannot see?

[paulr]

...
The question remains open in as much as determining what you are allowed to change and how you will assess the impact of the changes.  I am unconvinced that Chris's Blog addressed this. This is not an exercise in cynicism but a real inquiry; what are we really seeking to do during a refight and at what level - tactically, operationally or strategically.  Pickett's charge would have succeeded with a bit more artillery support OR a stronger and earlier attack on Little Round Top would have won the battle OR why are we fighting at Gettysburg?
...

The answer is yes
By playing different level refights we can explore all three questions in different ways

For example, we can better understand how much more artillery support Pickett would need and where that could be deployed. We would also gain some insight into the coordination required to use that extra artillery effectively and perhaps impacts on the timing of Pickett's charge...

For me refights are not about answers but understanding the interactions of the many disparate factors at play (pun intended)

I hope this helps address your real inquiry

[T13A]

Hi

For example, we can better understand how much more artillery support Pickett would need and where that could be deployed. We would also gain some insight into the coordination required to use that extra artillery effectively and perhaps impacts on the timing of Pickett's charge...

Maybe....

And you would have to somehow relpicate the Confederate commander not really having a clue as to how effective (or otherwise) the artillery was and how effective the Union counter artillery fire was. Oh, and you would also need rules for ammunition expenditure. And Lee not knowing the actual strength of his own forces (i.e. how badly Pettigrew's (now commanding Heths' division) and Trimble's (commanding two brigades of Pender's division) brigades had suffered two days before).

Cheers Paul