Reasons NOT to refight historical battles

[Gwydion]

Clearly you and I play very different games if you think that was " hardly different from civilian wargaming."


It's as far removed from what I would consider wargaming as Subbuteo is. If not further. At least Subbuteo is a conflict played on a playing surface with miniatures.

TEWTs are excellent wargames-which law says a wargame has to have miniatures on a tabletop?
But if you prefer, and Last Hussar wants a wargame of Market Garden with a reasonably accurate Orbat, then the game played at Camberley around the same time as the Northag game should suffice. Large map on floor of lecture hall, loads of umpires (I was one) and those playing the commands of the Allies and Germans in rooms connected by phones and runners. The Orbat wasn't accurate to the last Kompanie perhaps but sufficient to give a reasonably historical set of proceedings and outcome.

PS -  The Lambton Worm Orbat is wrong for the Knight's side - where is the intel section that told him how to defeat it, and the reserve of his father and sacrificial dog?

[Ithoriel]

... which law says a wargame has to have miniatures on a tabletop?

Mine.

If it doesn't it's an RPG.

Which is an excellent form of entertainment and a closely related pastime but still a beast of a different colour.

[John Cook]

Clearly you and I play very different games if you think that was " hardly different from civilian wargaming."
It's as far removed from what I would consider wargaming as Subbuteo is. If not further. At least Subbuteo is a conflict played on a playing surface with miniatures.

I doubt that very much.  In the almost 60 years I've been wargaming I have encountered all kinds of wargames, in a professional and hobby context.  Nowhere is it 'written' that a wargame has to be "played on a playing surface with miniatures".  Often they are not.  The Market Garden TEWT I alluded to involved 1:50000 maps and counters.  It would have been instantly recognisable to any board wargamer.  Board wargames don't involve miniatures, but they are still wargames.

The concept that wargames have to involve miniatures, and dice, is a rather narrow outlook I'd say.  The fact of the matter is that you simply don't need miniatures, which are actually no more than pretty counters, to play wargames effectively. 

Be all that as it may, the fact of the matter is that historical wargaming is a valuable tool for teaching tactics and operational art.  It was used by RMA Sandhurst until the late 80s to my certain knowledge, and you only have to look at the courses run today by staff colleges here in the UK, the US and elsewhere, to see that they are taken increasingly seriously for, among other things, teaching military history.

The difficulty, perhaps, with historical wargaming is that it isn't easy to do well.  That doesn't mean it can't be done.  In order to be intellectually challenging, as well as enjoyable, historical wargames require a lot more preparation and commitment than just a 'Friday night fight' with a bunch of miniatures, a handful of dice and no context, which is definitely comparable to Subbuteo, in my view, and about as satisfying.

Still, different strokes for different folks, as they say. 

[Chad]

Do not necessarily disagree with you John but your Friday night point is often the crux of the issue.

Assuming you meet on a Friday night from say 7pm to 11pm. You have to allow say an hour to set up and then pack up, giving you abou 3 hours for a game. You are then very much reliant on having rules that are capable of running a refight of any historical battle in 3 hours to a satisfactory and meaningful conclusion. If such a refight is not possible then it seems to me that you are left with games that have a reasonably good reflection of the period you are playing and can be completed on a Friday night.

I say this even though, since I started wargaming 50 years ago, I have always been in a position where time was never a constraint.

[sultanbev]

To make my point, however, please give me a link to the accurate Orbat for the Germans for Market Garden.

Probably as good as you are gonna get to date:
https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/3426/MicroMark-Army-Lists/subcategory/5776_5892/WW2-GERMANS?page=5
G544: German 712th Infantry Division, NW Europe, August-September 1944
G545: German 719th Infantry Division, NW Europe, August-September 1944
G546: SS Grenadier Regiment Landstorm Nederlands, Holland, May-October 1944
G547: German 176th Division, NW Europe, August-October 1944 (double list)
G548: German Kampfgruppe Chill, 85th Infantry Division, Holland, 5-8th September 1944
G549: German 6th Fallschirmjager Regiment von der Heydte, NW Europe, September 1944
G550: German 245th Infantry Division, NW Europe, September 1944 (double list)
G551: German 59th Infantry Division, NW Europe, September 1944
G552: German Hermann Goring Panzer Replacement and Training Regiment, NW Europe, September 1944 aka Fallschirm-Panzer-Ersatz und Ausbildungs Regiment Hermann Göring
G553: German Fallschirmjager Division Erdmann, NW Europe, September 1944
G554: German Kampfgruppe Walther, Neerpelt Bridgehead, 17th September 1944
G555: German Kampfgruppes (1) Helle, Weber, Krafft, Arnhem, 17th September 1944
G556: German SS Kampfgruppes (2) Spindler, Harder, von Allworden, Moller, Arnhem, Sep 1944
G557: German 9th SS Armoured Recce Battalion (KG Graebner), Arnhem, 17th-25thSept. 1944
G558: German Unterfuhrer Schule Arnheim, Arnhem, 17th-18th September 1944
G559: German Division von Tettau, Arnhem, 17th-18th September 1944
G560: German Kampfgruppe Knoche, Arnhem, 17th-18th September 1944 (double list)
G561: German Kampfgruppes (3) Koeppel, Walther, von Svobada, Holland, 18th Sept 1944
G562: German 10th SS Panzer Division Frundsberg, Holland, 5th September 1944 (double list)
G563: German Kampfgruppes (4) Brinkman, Knaust, Nickmann, Sonnenstuhl, Holland, 17th-21st September 1944
G564: German Kampfgruppe Krafft, Arnhem, 19th September 1944
G565: German Kampfgruppes (5) Reinhold, Euling, Baumgaertel, Holland, 19th Sept. 1944
G566: German Kampfgruppe Henke, Nijmegen, 17th-21st September 1944
G567: German Korps Feldt (1) zbv406 Division, Holland, 16-17th September 1944
G568: German Korps Feldt (2) Wehrkreis VI, Holland, 16th-17th September 1944
G569: German Kampfgruppes (6) Goebel, Greschick, von Furstenberg, Groesbeek Heights, 18th September 1944
G570: German Kampfgruppe Stargaard, Korps Feldt, Groesbeek Heights, 18th Sept 1944
G571: German Kampfgruppe Becker, 3rd Fallschirmjager Division, Holland, 20th Sept 1944
G572: German Kampfgruppe Hermann, 5th Fallschirmjager Division, Holland, 20th Sept 1944
G573: German Kampfgruppes Jungwirth & Ewald, Holland, 18th-26th September 1944
G574: German Kampfgruppe Zuber, Holland, 18th-26th September 1944
G575: German Kampfgruppe Rink, Holland, 18th-26th September 1944
G576: German Kampfgruppe Helle, Arnhem, 18th September 1944
G577: German Kampfgruppes (7) Bruhn, Shorken, Arnhem, 19th-20th September 1944
G578: German Kampfgruppe Spindler, Arnhem, 19th September 1944
   (contains KG Bruhn, Krafft, Harder, von Allworden, Gropp, Moeller)
G579: German Sperrverband Harzer, Holland, 21st-22nd September 1944
G580: German Kampfgruppe Walther, Veghel, Holland, 22nd September 1944
G581: German Kampfgruppe Huber, Veghel, Holland, 22nd September 1944
G582: German Kampfgruppe Chill, Veghel, Holland, 24th-25th September 1944 (double list)
G583: German Kampfgruppe Walther, Holland, 23rd-24th September

Mark

[fred.]

Impressive Mark! I was going to reference It Never Snows, but I think you have gone rather beyond that!

[John Cook]

Exactly so Chad, and the principal reason why I have never belonged to a club that had to set up and complete games on one evening.  There is also the racket from half a dozen different games going on at the same time.  Not for me.  I am fortunate that I have my own permanent set-up and game with a handful of like minded people, so time is not a constraint for me either.

[John Cook]

Mark, my interest stops in 1940 but the Niehorster German WWII Organizational Series might also be useful.  They can be found here http://niehorster.org/

[Chris Pringle]

Assuming you meet on a Friday night from say 7pm to 11pm. You have to allow say an hour to set up and then pack up, giving you abou 3 hours for a game. You are then very much reliant on having rules that are capable of running a refight of any historical battle in 3 hours to a satisfactory and meaningful conclusion.

That is exactly the challenge that "Bloody Big BATTLES!" was designed to meet. (OK, not exactly - Oxford Wargames Society meets on Monday evenings, not Fridays.) Four of us fought all three days of Gettysburg to a conclusion in under four hours, including set-up and take-down time, and made it to the pub for a pint afterwards.

As for the matter of imperfect knowledge about orders of battle: we don't need perfect knowledge. A simulation can cope with some margin of error in the data and still provide useful output.

Anyway, glad that my post of two months ago is still generating interesting discussion!

Chris

[Last Hussar]

My point is that was the "theoretical" German Orbat. However there was an armour a/t battalion that was 3 STuGsin NW Europe. Its fine to say "we think x bn was there" but if it turns out the bn is actually a couple of platoons the Orbat you use is wrong.

And that is the 20th century. Wars of the Roses sources have things like "5000 men under Stanley". Really 5000? How many were actually on the field? What proportion had bow? Were armoured?

[FierceKitty]

My point is that was the "theoretical" German Orbat. However there was an armour a/t battalion that was 3 STuGsin NW Europe. Its fine to say "we think x bn was there" but if it turns out the bn is actually a couple of platoons the Orbat you use is wrong.

And that is the 20th century. Wars of the Roses sources have things like "5000 men under Stanley". Really 5000? How many were actually on the field? What proportion had bow? Were armoured?

Too many of both, the treacherous creep!

[Heedless Horseman]

Life's too short!

Research is good and can 'entertain' for hours/months/years... but 'Accuracy' is impossible to achieve... even 'Down The Rabbit Hole' of 20th C records... never mind earlier.
L Hussar has it about right. Even if you could ask Stanley... He wouldn't know... or be bothered that much. I imagine that Richard's comments would be more 'colourful'! 

Make an 'educated' guess and enjoy yourselves!

[Chad]

The French Revoluion can be exactly the same at times.

[sultanbev]

My point is that was the "theoretical" German Orbat. However there was an armour a/t battalion that was 3 STuGsin NW Europe. Its fine to say "we think x bn was there" but if it turns out the bn is actually a couple of platoons the Orbat you use is wrong.

The lists I have done for Market Garden, and many more recent ones, above are actual strengths as much as possible- I try and combine TOE and OOB - there are now more and more records coming available detailing weapons strengths of many units in WW2, almost leading to information overload.

[John Cook]

My point is that was the "theoretical" German Orbat. However there was an armour a/t battalion that was 3 STuGsin NW Europe. Its fine to say "we think x bn was there" but if it turns out the bn is actually a couple of platoons the Orbat you use is wrong.

Then use the 'correct' OB.