Question about Impetus Baroque

[d_Guy]

Still no sign of it on Northstar website

Thanks to the link in Zippee's first post in this thread I was able to pre-order Baroque and then buy it direct (with an immediate response ahead of the response to the email I had sent D&P). Apparently the pre-order offer will remain in place until the end of March. Possibly it will not go to other distributors until April. And, having now just checked the mail, my copy has arrived!
Very quick response!

[mollinary]

Thanks to the link in Zippee's first post in this thread I was able to pre-order Baroque and then buy it direct (with an immediate response ahead of the response to the email I had sent D&P). Apparently the pre-order offer will remain in place until the end of March. Possibly it will not go to other distributors until April. And, having now just checked the mail, my copy has arrived!
Very quick response!

I went to their website, went to the shop, and bought a copy via PayPal. I will let folks know when it arrives.

Mollinary

[Zippee]

OK first game played - ECW 600 point basic stuff, Gallopers, ironsides, Trotters and Pike & Musket, nothing weird but a sprinkling of specials like Motivated, feared, Agitators & Preachers, iron Officers, etc.

Basic first reaction: LOVE'EM 

The Reaction system replacing Opportunity and ZOC is a godsend, simple, clean but much more nuanced, damn fine move.

Exhaustion after 50%+ VBU loss, good move, curs out those extreme results.

Change in measurement works well - we played in 6mm with units based 60mm x 30mm (what can I say I was deluded by the tedium that is Polemos ECW) and we could have played the game on a 3' x 3' table comfortably.

As it was we didn't get to the infantry engagement but had lots of fun with the horse wings. Very nioce balance of Gallopers vs Trotters and Reiters, the additional special rules really had impact and balance, very impressed. The Royalist fops did what they did and raced about chewing units up but the stolid trotters wore them down in the end.

All in all, very clean, very crisp and good historical flavoured results.

A big thumbs up  from all concerned.

I cannot see us returning to ZOCs and opportunity for ancients now - this really is a significant improvement.

I'm often hesitant about rules with lots of special unit rules but in this instance they really are the icing on the cake, just enough flavour to make a difference.

All in all can't recommend them more - top notch game, top notch fun, nuff said 

[Nosher]

Sounds encouraging and thanks for the heads up. Spoke to Northstar yesterday and the rules should be with them in the next fortnight.

Good to hear that cavalry is balanced. One of the things I found frustrating with other sets covering the ECW is that gallops are all conquering. The only other rule set that evens this out is Fog Renaissance which is why I stick with them even though they are long winded.

[Leman]

Caliver already stocking. My copy arrived from Dave within 24 hours.

[Zippee]

One thing we did miss was the complete change to the victory conditions - we had wondered why it was possible to withdraw units voluntarily from the field.  

Now I understand why - exhausted units count their VD to command loss, eliminated units count double VD to command loss. Once a command reaches 0 VDC all units test discipline every turn, failure means its eliminated, commands can disappear wholesale quickly! So as soon as you are close, start withdrawing the used up crud. Once the army VDT reaches 0 - game over, army routs. There are also nice touches in that Baggage and occupied villages count towards your army VDT (the prossies help here too  )

Only down side is that it can lead to the command being reduced to a sort of single super unit with attached general - I'm sure that will be the tournament approach. Not that that worries me but I'm sure it'll get mentioned.  

The more we review the game the more completely sold on the revised Reaction system over the old Opportunity and ZOC system, no more geometry or micro measuring, just plenty of decision nodes. We hadn't appreciated at first that reactions were limited to one attempt per unit per turn, not one reaction. As you have different options depending on what the enemy is doing and different chances of success depending on what you are/they are doing it leads to some great narrative moments.

For instance we had gallopers watching trotters advancing past them - do they attempt to opportunity charge (allowed against moving units) but with a significant chance of failure, or wait for them to declare a charge when you can counter-charge (which for gallopers is pretty much a dead cert) but what if they just move into position and don't charge, lost opportunity. Not to mention you might want to keep the reaction for later, etc. Great stuff, total involvement all the time but without watching for geometric infringement, just observing for an opportunity. More like commanding, less like rules lawyering  

In the end we had precisely one question unresolved, not bad for a first game and indicates how much more clearly written Baroque is compared to Impetus. Which bodes well for Impetus II.

Oh the question: once withdrawn does a unit still count as exhausted for VDC calculation if it was already exhausted. In fact do withdrawn units count as exhausted regardless. We could see this both ways. Anyway one question which is more clarification than anything, not bad for a first game.

Highly recommended  

[FierceKitty]

Double VD? I don't think I want to know....

[Zippee]

It's an unfortunate abbreviation but that's Italians for you  

And I've just had a clarification and update from Lorenzo on the Impetus Forum which I'll quote here as it's good news 

oh, yes they count. Once a Unit is exhausted it immediately counts over the Victory Conditions. Then it is up to you to decide to withdraw or risk to loose more. Or you can also withdraw a Unit before being Exhausted.

Impetus 2 will be based on the same reaction system. Baroque was the occasion to test some different ideas. Impetus 2 should be a mix of Impetus (as we know now) and Baroque. Of course this in theory, as playtesting will help to tune the whole thing.

We have draft of more Baroque lists. Those published were those tested. Just the time to check the points (we changed here and there but working on the tested list and so I have to check that the other lists have the updated points) and I will upload.
In the future I will publish the official supplement but I prefer to test the lists before that as betas.
Also, in the official lists I want to add Characters like Wallenstein, Rupert, Gustavus Adolphus, Tilly etc

Well I think that's good news - Impetus II will have Reaction not Opportunity, huzzah! 

[Leman]

That really is a bonus. Cheers for that Zippee.

[d_Guy]

Thanks for the play test and review. The reaction rules do seem well conceived and -as you said- add interesting sets of decision points (rather than simply mechanical responses).  Also the way units degrade seems to have its own set of decision points.
I am about to do the "battle" of Fyvie with my own rules but will then redo with Baroque to see if I can fiddle my force structures to work.
I would like nothing better than a standard rules set that I can use with my eccentric (solo) gaming that would allow others to relate to it 

[Leman]

Continuing to read through the rules and I'm beginning to see how Impetus could be tidied up and streamlined. I hope the competition boys don't get their teeth into these and ruin them with demands for this tweak and that tweak to satisfy their competetive whims. I have currently dumped all the tweaks to the original Impetus and just play the original rules, replacing opportunity with discipline reaction.

[Zippee]

The competition heads on the Impetus Forum do not seem to be engaging with any discussion of Baroque.

Perhaps it's too new 

I actually quite like most of the "tweaks" presented in Advanced Impetus (naturally I ignore all the terrain placement and tournament deployment rule stuff) but things like the bonus support for covered flanks works well.

Obviously stripping ZOC and declared Opportunity for Discipline Test Reaction is a big change - not sure how my lads would feel about that. But as I think we'll be concentrating on Baroque for some while it's probably moot. With luck Impetus II will be out by then anyway 

Oh, I've just realised that in all my comments above I neglected to mention one other obvious and significant change from Impetus. There are no Group Moves or Group Formations in Baroque, each base (or collection of bases, depending on preference) is its own thing - kind of like Battlegroups in FOG I suppose.

And I failed my Will save and sent Leon a starter order for ECW/TYW stuff, oops! Better finish the last unit of Napoleonics quick then 

[AndyT]

What's an average Baroque army like in terms of size. Just trying to guage how many figures might be needed.

(And should I not bother with my ideas for an ECW variant of "Warband"?)

[Leman]

An interesting question. The author stipulates a relatively small number of figures needed (about 150). However, if you look at the 28mm photos in the rules the units look pretty thin for my taste. Even my 28mm units are twice the size of his, but with the same footprint. However my preferred scale is 15mm for ECW and I have modelled my armies along the lines of Fat Frank. I think this style would look terrific in 10mm as well.

There is a link to Fat Frank's site on the Peter Pig website at the end of the ECW section. Well worth a look for Baroque inspiration in any scale.

[Zippee]

Hard to estimate numbers of figures as there is no relationship between troop type and numbers as there is in say FOG.

The 600 point (smallish but enough for an evening) ECW game we played as our trial was basically as follows:

Each side had 4 Horse units (Gallopers, Trotters or Reiters depending on doctrine but all essentially the same look); 6 Pike & Musket units, a light gun, 1 C-in-C and 2 Sub-Commanders.

The ECW lists each allow for around 12 Horse, 12 P&M, 2 Dragoon, 2 Commanded Shot, 1 Forlorn Hope, 2 guns, 4 commanders and a Baggage Park if that helps

Basing convention for 10mm is not established as its brand new but the rulebook suggests two options:
a) use the 15mm sizes with more figures
b) use half the 28mm sizes with 15mm measurements
(usually measurement is in units equal to half the unit frontage, 9cm for 28mm figs and 6cm for 15mm figs - presumably they don't want to impose 4.5cm movement on you  )

Anyway I'm going with the 15mm standard using more figures 

As such each Horse unit will be a 120mm x 40mm (30mm as an option) base - I reckon that'll be 12 to 16 figures or thereabouts in 10mm. Each Pike & Musket unit will be 120mm x 40mm (60mm as an option) - I reckon I'll get about 48 figures on that. Guns are on 40mm square bases. Commanders how you see fit - I'll use circles with 2-4 officers.

Bear in mind this is theoretical until Leon gets my order in the post and I can do some mock-ups. We're testing the rules with my 6mm units (on 60x30mm bases which has the advantage of meaning the game plays comfortably on a 3' table) 

Of course you can optionally use smaller bases to make up the units - so something like 6 FOG bases (to get the 40mm depth) which essentially means a Baroque unit is a FOG Battlegroup. I just like the diorama effect and ease of movement of one big base. It limits using them for other rules though, so horses/courses as usual. I think landsknechts and tercios on 120mm square bases, packed with deployed figures will look the business though 

The other option is to use half the size of 28mm units, which results in 90mm frontage for 10mm (presumably that could be multiple 30mm bases too). By the same token you could put any smaller bases together so long as you achieve a consistent unit frontage.