A request for clarifications please.

The rules on pp38/39 and p84 are not clear to me about the distinction between trenches and gun pits (other than points cost) as both afford -2d6 attack protection and hits on 6 with trenches offering a save value of 6 and gun pits a 5.  This seems strange to me as gun pits are more open than trenches. 
Trenches offer 360 degree defensive protection... but gun pits?  And also on p. 84 trenches can only be engaged from frontal 90deg.   Infantry support can use both trenches and gun pits.  Clearly as a defender a gun pit is preferable!
It also says in the last sentence above the table on p84, that "all field defences provide full cover to the troops inside" so not sure why the rules say trench provides 360 degree defensive cover when that sentence implies the same for any field defences they occupy, so both trenches and gun pits.
A trench can only be engaged with enemy fire from frontal 90deg – presumably this applies to enemy direct fire only. The trench or gun pit provides full protection against everything, but in an assault the enemy could hit flank or rear as well as the front of a trench or gun pit.

So, some clarifications please:

• Infantry can only occupy trenches and not gun pits?
• Infantry support weapons can occupy trenches or gun pits – so which is it for GPMG SF, MILAN (and similar ATW), MANPADs, mortars?
• What does 360 deg cover mean? Especially given the 90 deg frontal arc for trenches.
• What is the arc of fire for gun pits - is it the standard 180deg for the base?
• Can MANPADs still have 360 AA arc from a gun pit (subject to terrain blocking)?
• Trenches and gun pits can be assaulted from any direction?

Many thanks

Clarifications below inline.
However, I'd make the point upfront that it appears that you are looking for a rules 'advantage' that doesn't play out historically. Infantry don't dig Gun pits for themselves - they dig trenches and fox-holes. Likewise 'artillery or their equivalent' don't operate out of trenches (generally). If you look at your question with this information in context it should help you with my answers below.

QuoteA request for clarifications please.

The rules on pp38/39 and p84 are not clear to me about the distinction between trenches and gun pits (other than points cost) as both afford -2d6 attack protection and hits on 6 with trenches offering a save value of 6 and gun pits  5. 
This seems strange to me as gun pits are more open than trenches.
> I agree but it is a game mechanism that allows for the fact that most INF: designated units have a larger number of saves/lives that most 'artillery or equivalent' type units.
 
Trenches offer 360 degree defensive protection... but gun pits?
> Gun pits also have a 360 degree defensive protection. Other similar 'pits' for AFVs for example only offer protection to the front and flank.

And also on p. 84 trenches can only be engaged from frontal 90deg.  Infantry support can use both trenches and gun pits.  Clearly as a defender a gun pit is preferable!
> Gun pits can be assaulted from 360 degrees, trenched only from the front (or rear if an enemy is behind them). The difference is deliberate as it is designed to stop attacking units running along a trench in assault - which is a game mechanism. In this context 'engaged' means assaulted - that can be clarified in the errata. Also Infantry cannot be deliberately deployed in Gun Pits, unless they are designated as Infantry Support.

It also says in the last sentence above the table on p84, that "all field defences provide full cover to the troops inside" so not sure why the rules say trench provides 360 degree defensive cover when that sentence implies the same for any field defences they occupy, so both trenches and gun pits.
> just to emphasis that that is the case.

A trench can only be engaged with enemy fire from frontal 90deg – presumably this applies to enemy direct fire only.
> A trench can only be assaulted frontally. It can take fire from any angle or from template weapons or on-table LoF weapons.

The trench or gun pit provides full protection against everything, but in an assault the enemy could hit flank or rear as well as the front of a trench or gun pit.
> No, a trench can only be assaulted frontally (or from the rear if the enemy is behind it) whilst a gun pit can be assaulted from 360 degrees.

So, some clarifications please:

• Infantry can only occupy trenches and not gun pits?

> Gun pits are designed for guns & the equivalent of guns, not Infantry - so Yes, Infantry (other than Infantry Support units) can only occupy trenches.

• Infantry support weapons can occupy trenches or gun pits – so which is it for GPMG SF, MILAN (and similar ATW), MANPADs, mortars?

> GPMGs are classified as INF:SF and are in the Infantry Support section of the army lists, so they can use trenches or gun-pits. The ATGWs & MANPADs will be determined by their designations - if they are INF:ATGW or INF:SAMs they can occupy trenches or gun pits. If they are specifically classified in the ATGW or AA sections, they can only occupy gun pits.

• What does 360 deg cover mean? Especially given the 90 deg frontal arc for trenches.

> 360 degrees = all around fire. 90 degrees is from the front of the unit occupying the trench out at a 45 degree angle from each corner of the base or from a central point on the model.

• What is the arc of fire for gun pits - is it the standard 180deg for the base?

> Yes - if the unit doesnt have a special restriction it is its standard arc of fire.

• Can MANPADs still have 360 AA arc from a gun pit (subject to terrain blocking)?

> MANPADs that are designated as INF:SAMS must occupy trenches and are subject to the 90 degree shooting restriction. Those in a gun pit have their standard 360 degree arc of fire.

• Trenches and gun pits can be assaulted from any direction?

> No. Trenches can only be assaulted frontally (or to their rear) - gun pits can be assaulted from any angle.
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Many thanks

Hope that clarifies things. Most 'guns' are considerably more vulnerable than infantry. Normally INF: don't get a saving throw, where as a lot of Artillery units do, and INF: units very often have more lives. So the save on a 6 v save on a 5/6 generally balances out, overall.

Many thanks
Mark

Thank you for the clarifications Mark.  That's all very helpful and will definitely contribute to the next big game Superscribe and I are planning for January.

Rather than my seeking a rules advantage, it had appeared to me that the rules for "gun pits" offered an inappropriate advantage for crewed weapon systems when compared with infantry in trenches.  You explained why this is the case, together with the new information about only being able to assault trenches from the front or rear.

Many thanks

John

Quote from: LittleGreenMan on 31 October 2023, 08:11:33 PMRather than my seeking a rules advantage, it had appeared to me that the rules for "gun pits" offered an inappropriate advantage for crewed weapon systems when compared with infantry in trenches.  You explained why this is the case, together with the new information about only being able to assault trenches from the front or rear.

Many thanks

John

Hi John - apologies - rereading my reply it came across a bit harsh - it was not my intention to doubt your integrity at all.
Kind regards
Mark

Hi Mark

Very useful info but in your initial reply to John you said "MANPADs will be determined by their designations - if they are INF:ATGW or INF:SAMs they can occupy trenches or gun pits" and later you said "MANPADs that are designated as INF:SAMS must occupy trenches and are subject to the 90 degree shooting restriction" which contradicts the first statement.

Blowpipe, Javelin and SA-7 are all designated INF:SAM and listed in the relevant Army List Support section so should be able to deploy in either a trench (with its restricted arc of fire but more protection from assault), or in a Gun Pit (with less protection but with their usual 360 deg arc of fire).

Can you please clarify which it is for these specific support weapons.

Regards
Chris

Comments in-line below Chris:

Quote from: Superscribe on 01 November 2023, 01:45:05 PMHi Mark

Very useful info but in your initial reply to John you said "MANPADs will be determined by their designations - if they are INF:ATGW or INF:SAMs they can occupy trenches or gun pits" and later you said "MANPADs that are designated as INF:SAMS must occupy trenches and are subject to the 90 degree shooting restriction" which contradicts the first statement.
> with INF:SAMs it depends upon the section of the list they appear in. Those that appear as Infantry support can occupy trenches and gun pits (& have a 90 degree shooting arc restriction). Those that appear in the Anti-Aircraft section (as Dedicated AA) can only occupy gun pits but have a 360 degree arc of fire. I got myself in a 'knot' over which was what.

Blowpipe, Javelin and SA-7 are all designated INF:SAM and listed in the relevant Army List Support section so should be able to deploy in either a trench (with its restricted arc of fire but more protection from assault), or in a Gun Pit (with less protection but with their usual 360 deg arc of fire). > Yes, 100% correct Chris. In this instance it is not just weapon specific but how they are deployed tactically.

Can you please clarify which it is for these specific support weapons.
Regards
Chris

Thanks
Mark