I was watching the Little Wars TV refight of Hastings, and it occurred to me that in this particular game the Normans had unlimited supply of javelins all day

https://youtu.be/31rh_8spPj0?si=3hG1_rGPUE8J00jQ

Which got me wondering, how come ancients rules don't have ammunition supply limits, or javelin/arrow resupply wagons/horses? Is this a commonly overlooked theme and completely unrealistic, or is there something else going on?

Simple answer - Booking.

Some rules do have restrictions on ammo, To the Strongest for example has some

But as the green one suggests most wargamers hate bookkeeping

Very similar comments can be made about most wargaming rules although Genral Quarters does cater for tracking main battery ammunition for the ships

Javelins are probably the main exception since they are usually restricted to only a couple. For archers/slingers running out of ammo wasn't usually a huge concern as there'd usually be enough in the baggage to restock and there would be plenty of people carrying backup arrows and doing resupply runs, so it would be very unlikely to run out before the lines actually clashed and their utility diminished.

Saying that, most javelin skirmish troops carried 2-3 javelins and since they were fighting in open formations they weren't firing in "volleys" so could assume that any one round of "firing" of javelins wouldn't actually include everyone firing at once. There's also a good chance that the enemy was throwing javelins back that you could pick up and throw back at them, bolstering your supplies. So running out while performing harassing actions then running away is unlikely. You might also swarm in on a segment of the enemy line that got broken up from the others for some light close-quarters combat. Most rules tend to abstract this okay to the point that it doesn't feel like they have an infinite ammo cheat code on by making them generally weaker and vulnerable to being driven off.

The ammo rules in TtS is one of rules I'm not entirely happy with because of the book keeping aspects and the difficulty that provides ranged armies that would have otherwise been quite effective. I know some rules have an "out of ammo" event if you roll a particular result that requires a resupply action, which can sometimes work, but overall I'd rather ammo and supplies be more abstracted within the rules than explicitly managed.

@ mmcv, that all makes sense, thanks.

So in the example wargame I linked to, the Norman (heavy?) cavalry spent hours throwing javelins at the shield wall, alongside supporting crossbow fire from foot troops. Yet those cavalry units never appeared to retire to camp to restock. As they were doing a historical refight, wouldn't it sqew the results somewhat?

Quote from: sultanbev on 26 September 2023, 11:36:32 AM@ mmcv, that all makes sense, thanks.

So in the example wargame I linked to, the Norman (heavy?) cavalry spent hours throwing javelins at the shield wall, alongside supporting crossbow fire from foot troops. Yet those cavalry units never appeared to retire to camp to restock. As they were doing a historical refight, wouldn't it sqew the results somewhat?

It's an interesting hypothesis that the 'Norman' HC threw javelins. The general consensus is that they had a spear and used it over arm as an impact weapon (even at Hastings). Also the numbers of crossbow were probably tiny, as against the larger numbers of Norman skirmishing foot archers.

It was probably the significant Breton allied contingent supporting the Normans that had javelin armed HC and a more skirmish orientated ethos in combat. I also suspect that when we see a base of HC (on the table) we have a single line (in our minds eye) but the reality is that our tabletop models represent many ranks and that they probably circulated forward and back allowing the troops at the front to throw their javelins/short spears and then retire. Javelins have a very short range, even when mounted, unless the cavalry has a good enough run-up to impart the necessary momentum.

The ancient Battle of Lechaeum - between Spartan hoplites and Athenian peltasts is an often quoted example of how lighter troops can destroy heavier ones, using skirmishing javelins tactics, especially when the heavy troops are unsupported by their own lighter troops. What is interesting is that there is no mention of a supply or resupply issues for the peltasts in the historical accounts of the battle.

I'd also agree that most gamers hate book-keeping and once you start with ammo supplies its a slippery slope.
Also, at Hastings, if we are to take the Tapestry as any kind of historical representation, the Saxons are also depicted throwing javelins/short spears and even improvised clubs (stones tied to sticks) down the hill at the Norman/Breton cavalry in reply. Not that I suspect that the Normans or Bretons would have benefited from these very much, even if their own skirmishing light infantry were able to collect them.

Cheers
Mark

Hi

I'm sure that there is fairly well known military saying that has the words 'amateurs, tactics, professionals, logistics' in it somewhere. 

Bearing in mind that the 'To the Strongest!' rules are marketed as a fast play set of rules I personally think that the ammo rules work really well and certainly the group I regularly play them with do not find them onerous or take any of the fun out of playing.

I think the main point regarding having ammunition rules (or not) for me is that, using the battle of Hastings as an example, and assuming that in a wargame I am in playing William, then I would not have fought the battle the way he was obliged to do if I had had unlimited ammunition supplies. I think this very much impacts on how much we want our 'wargames' to reflect the kind of things that commanders in real life had to wrestle with rather than it simply being a 'game' (rather than a 'wargame').

Just my tuppence worth of course! 

Cheers Paul   

Quote from: mmcv on 26 September 2023, 08:58:09 AMThe ammo rules in TtS is one of rules I'm not entirely happy with because of the book keeping aspects and the difficulty that provides ranged armies that would have otherwise been quite effective. I know some rules have an "out of ammo" event if you roll a particular result that requires a resupply action, which can sometimes work, but overall I'd rather ammo and supplies be more abstracted within the rules than explicitly managed.

In "To the Strongest" I  use one  of Pendrakens dice frames stuck to a 15mm base with a dice in it indicating the ammo left. Minimizes the book keeping

Quote@ mmcv, that all makes sense, thanks.

So in the example wargame I linked to, the Norman (heavy?) cavalry spent hours throwing javelins at the shield wall, alongside supporting crossbow fire from foot troops. Yet those cavalry units never appeared to retire to camp to restock. As they were doing a historical refight, wouldn't it sqew the results somewhat?

It depends how much you wish to abstract things. The Norman heavy cavalry are represented by a handful of figures showing the heavily armoured proto-knights. What isn't represented is the various squires, men at arms and attendants that would have followed them into battle with spare horses and equipment for them. While some were in the front of the line chucking spears others retired back a bit for some light refreshments and a restock, while I'm sure there were young squires and runners nipping back and forth to the baggage to bring resupplies. We often think of battles as just the men at the front, but there's always a whole network of supporting people behind them, keeping them supplied, adding some extra weight to their charges or just running along afterwards mopping up survivors.

QuoteIn "To the Strongest" I  use one  of Pendrakens dice frames stuck to a 15mm base with a dice in it indicating the ammo left. Minimizes the book keeping

I use small dice for it though can be fiddly still. It's more I find it puts quite severe limits on ranged focused armies, somewhat by design I think to keep things moving quickly and decisively. But running out of ammo is not something that often comes up in historical reading.

Most of the time ammo was 'recycled' or fired back.
That's why the pilum was so nasty.
Also, Towton, one side retired out of bow range, then advanced and used all the spent arrows after theirs

I tend to favour abstract mechanics in place of book keeping.

I always felt that the ammunition (and things like heroes) were the warts on the elegant To the Strongest initial rules.
I've since witnessed (with horror) the (fourteen I think) rules updates, providing ever greater grist for the rules lawyers.
I hope that a second edition will tidy up and eliminate many of the "seemed like a good idea at the time" ideas.

If I were designing a set of ancients rules, I'd consider some sort of "low ammo" roll which would either stop or disadvantage that unit's shooting.

Other designers might find a happy medium where tracking ammo takes less game time than evaluating the many one-in-a-thousand shots that wargamers insist on taking.
"Ahh, but the attached general has a horse-bow, one archer shooting at heavy infantry .....".

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 29 September 2023, 12:15:03 PMIf I were designing a set of ancients rules, I'd consider some sort of "low ammo" roll which would either stop or disadvantage that unit's shooting.

Yes, Fire & Fury has the ubiqitious roll a 10 on a D10 when firing and you go low on ammo if its more than half the unit firin g (half firing from then on in). For our Napoleonics we added that if you fielded a battery without a limber model, a 10 means you run out totally. But we do allow ammo wagons, where a unit spending a full activation halted alongside can replenish ammo.

I'd be looking at something similar for an ancients set. As regards Roman pilums, I can't remember if they only carried one, so presumably they are a one shot thing?

Carried a pair - thrown in the charge.

I certainly expect a ruleset to make pila  one-shot weapons. They were designed to be impossible to reuse on the same day.