Quote from: Big Insect on 15 November 2022, 04:43:23 PMCan I clarify what you mean by ICM please?
I understand ICMs to be cluster munitions which are covered.

The extra cost for HE in the lists is for off-table Assets.
You buy these to allow your off-table guns to fire as pre-registered HE assets.
All other Commanded firing of HE by off-table artillery is included in the cost of the artillery pieces. 
So if you want a battery (unit) of off-table guns to fire HE at a pre-plotted point on the table at a specific turn, you must spend 10pts to do so. This asset allows you to fire that gun once in the game at that target point, and it hits that point with no deviation.
Th same gun can fire - under Commanded fire (in a different turn) - when Commanded by an FAO. However it's shooting may be subject to deviation and the FAO must pass a Command roll. There is no extra cost for this.
However, if that gun is firing special munitions (cluster munitions, napalm etc.) it has to buy those munitions separately, regardless of whether they are fired as assets or using Commanded fire. Again, the cost (50pts) to fire Napalm (for example) only allows that gun to fire that munition once in a game.

You are taking me literally -  - infantry can assault other infantry in a BUA - Tanks can only assault infantry in the open. So to clear enemy infantry from a BUA, you will need your own Infantry.

Hope that helps?
Mark

Point me in which page it says "ICM aka CLUSTER MUNITIONS"? Because it dont appear, again, this is lazy writing. Im sorry, I really want to like this game, it has lots of good ideas, but the redaction of rules is a huge put off.

The issue with HE is the same. In which paragraph points that you need to buy NORMAL munition for off table assets? I can answer that: in NONE, because I re read the section for the 4th time and don´t mention that at all.


As a games developer, if you want players to do certain things in game (use infantry to occupy BUAs for example) you need to reward that move, the lack of reward to do that is what puzzles me.

Quote from: Phobos on 15 November 2022, 05:09:09 PMPoint me in which page it says "ICM aka CLUSTER MUNITIONS"? Because it dont appear, again, this is lazy writing. Im sorry, I really want to like this game, it has lots of good ideas, but the redaction of rules is a huge put off.

The issue with HE is the same. In which paragraph points that you need to buy NORMAL munition for off table assets? I can answer that: in NONE, because I re read the section for the 4th time and don´t mention that at all.

It is generally accepted practice that ICMs are in fact a member of the Cluster Munitions 'family' - I don't believe it need any clarification.

Funny that over c. 10-15 years and many hundreds/thousands (now) of players - we've never needed that clarification on HE or Assets before, as you describe.

The very fact that you are asking the question "what are infantry used for" does puzzle me as again, we've never had that question before and I think as you play the game more, the usefulness of each of the different troop/unit types becomes more and more apparent.

"As a games developer, if you want players to do certain things in game (use infantry to occupy BUAs for example) you need to reward that move, the lack of reward to do that is what puzzles me." Personally I am not fussed how an individual player uses infantry - it will become very obvious how Infantry can be used on the table-top - I've seen games won by all Infantry forces over a full mechanised forces even in relatively open terrain. The 'reward' with regard to Infantry in BUAs is obvious from a game play perspective as getting Infantry out of BUAs especially with armour is very difficult.

Enjoy the game.

Again and again you dont answer my questions. I ask where is explained certain thing, you only say "it´s known" or "it´s widely accepted"
I must not know or widely accept anything, because we are talking about a rulebook, and the rules in a rulebook must be explained in it, not more, not less.

The same with infantry, I don´t know which scenarios you use, but only in 2 out of 16 a BUA can be an objective, so no need for the opposing force in the other 14 to enter those same BUAs.

I can´t enjoy the game, because you did a lousy job.

I confess I'm getting confused reading this exchange.
HE assets - yes for off table arty - but only for use in scheduled fire right?
No need to buy assets for fire requested via FAO during game?
So no charge for HE if only requested fire?

That's what it used to be - have I missed a change?

Yes Gwydion, you're right.

Phobos, it doesn't say you NEED to buy "normal" ammunition for off-table assets because you don't need to buy ammunition for assets unless you want the special ammunition types detailed in the rules. You just need to buy the assets. The effects of which are given. In game terms it doesn't matter if you're firing rockets or rock buns. All you need to know is in the rules.

As in real life, infantry becomes more useful the denser the terrain you use. Not even the Russian steppe or the Karakorum Desert are as flat and featureless as the average wargames table that I see.

Finally, I'm with Douglas Bader - "Rules are for the advice of wise men and the adherence of fools"*

*WARNING - This may not be an exact quite

Quote from: Ithoriel on 16 November 2022, 07:00:29 PMYes Gwydion, you're right.

Phobos, it doesn't say you NEED to buy "normal" ammunition for off-table assets because you don't need to buy ammunition for assets unless you want the special ammunition types detailed in the rules. You just need to buy the assets. The effects of which are given. In game terms it doesn't matter if you're firing rockets or rock buns. All you need to know is in the rules.

As in real life, infantry becomes more useful the denser the terrain you use. Not even the Russian steppe or the Karakorum Desert are as flat and featureless as the average wargames table that I see.

Finally, I'm with Douglas Bader - "Rules are for the advice of wise men and the adherence of fools"*

*WARNING - This may not be an exact quite

Well, tell that to Big Insect "The extra cost for HE in the lists is for off-table Assets.
You buy these to allow your off-table guns to fire as pre-registered HE assets. "

Maybe you need to learn to read and stop being a ludicrous person?

Btw, we play with an average 12 woods and 6 hills plus 1 or 2 villages, so shut up about my gaming table.

Also, what a salad with "asset" used in like 4 different contexts. Don´t you work with a basic glossary?

QuoteMaybe you need to learn to read and stop being a ludicrous person?

Quote...so shut up about my gaming table.

The members are trying to help you and answer your questions, but people are not going to continue doing that if you respond like this.

I´m not asking the members, I´m asking the game designer.

QuoteI´m not asking the members, I´m asking the game designer.

Actually, you're taking part in a group discussion.


Also my comment on terrain density was a general observation rather than being aimed at any specific person or game.

QuoteWell, tell that to Big Insect "The extra cost for HE in the lists is for off-table Assets.
You buy these to allow your off-table guns to fire as pre-registered HE assets. "

Maybe you need to learn to read and stop being a ludicrous person?

Read the 'Pre-game checklist' p.17
'Scheduled strikes'
'Artillery [and air strikes] can be scheduled to take place on specific turns during the game using the appropriate Artillery [and Air] assets bought as part of your battlegroup, plus the necessary artillery, aircraft or helicopters to deliver these strikes. Artillery strikes can also be requested by dedicated Forward Artillery Observers...during the command phase, but do not require assets when doing so.'

Read in conjunction with 'Scheduled Phase' p.20 and 'Artillery Support' p52 and 'Resolving Artillery Support' p.54 - the latter explains the advantage of scheduled fire which is one reason you pay for your 'assets (ammunition) to allow scheduled fire but not for requested fire.

Now have a nice cup of tea and stop blaming other people for your lack of patience.

Hi

Where can I find out more about the definition of the letters in bold type in the notes/abilities of the army lists? For example what does S2 mean for a Centurion Mk3 or R/IR for a T64 (I assume that R=Rare) or S1/T1 for a Challenger?

Thanks

Stephen

IR is Infra Red (p.69 Nightfighting)
S1 is Stabilised (p.40 Stabilisation) and the 1 is the reduction in attacks when firing on the move.
TI (not T1) is Thermal Imaging (p.69 Nightfighting)

These used to be in the notes section of the Army List Data as well as in the relevant rules section - and it would be more helpful to new players if they remained there as well. Perhaps space was a constraint. (or maybe I just can't see them)

I think we'll have a look at putting out an abbreviations document with page references for the relevant rules to go with them. Pete did that in the original CWC if I recall correctly.