Arab-Israeli lists
Israel
1) The M3 H/T with 90mm - only 4 built, so maximum 1
2) Achzarit HAPC missing, the most common one! T-55 hull with 14 tons of Composite armour added, so about same as Challenger 1 armour, 1989+, armament 1 MG.
3) Why do the other HAPC have 4/50 A/I factor when they are unarmed or only have an MG or two?
4) The M10 Achilles, were actually Wolverines with worn out 3" guns - these were removed and 1 armed with 17pdr that promptly broke, then 20 rearmed with French 75 CN75-50, same as AMX-13/75 which is coincidentally the same A/T stat; they only had 20, were going to issue 1 platoon per infantry battalion, so limit would be 1 I guess?
2A) Puma HAPC has composite armour

Arabs
5) Hetzers in the Arab list? Oooops, should be Jagdpanzer IV 75mm L48, limit 1 I think
(The Hetzer could have been in the Israeli list, as they were planning to build them at first, but then opted for turreted tanks instead.)
6) M52 has an armoured roof
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/105mmsphm52/105mmsphm52.html#M52TOP11
7) Syrian T-34/85 pillbox thingy only applies after c1965.
Remove the T-10, it was never exported, not sure why this keeps coming up in Arab lists.
9) Jordanian Hunter missing from aircraft list fot what it's worth.
10) The Egyptian Valentine was the 2pdr armed variant, although by 1956 they were gunless OP/HQ tanks for the Archer batteries. A/I stat should be 1/50 surely with 2pdr HE and 1 coax MG?
11) Remove the Syria only comment from the T-34/85 and T-54/55....
12) M113 should say Jordan only, not Egypt & Syria only
13) Is not 2P26 Schmel and AT-1 Snapper 4x4 the same vehicle? They have no MG so A/I = 1/40 is a bit generous for a couple of SMG/AK47 and pistol from the crew.
14) You could add the Hummel for the 1950s Syrian list, although limit = 1
15) curious about the "Restricted Ammo" rule for Archers and Charioteers, what is that meant to represent?
16) The T-34/100 and similar but missing T-34/122 were really artillery pieces, not tank destroyers or assault guns, so should be moved to the on-table artillery and off-table artillery sections.

Mark

QuoteArab-Israeli lists
Israel
1) The M3 H/T with 90mm - only 4 built, so maximum 1
> thanks

2) Achzarit HAPC missing, the most common one! T-55 hull with 14 tons of Composite armour added, so about same as Challenger 1 armour, 1989+, armament 1 MG.

> It is down as an APC at the end of the Transport/Vehicle section - it's an interesting debate about whether these HAPCs are classified as APCs or IFVs - they tend to be used more by the IDF in an APC role - but that probably reflects their current operational needs. I'll also look at the armour classification

3) Why do the other HAPC have 4/50 A/I factor when they are unarmed or only have an MG or two?

> that looks like it might be a copying error - I'll pick that up

4) The M10 Achilles, were actually Wolverines with worn out 3" guns - these were removed and 1 armed with 17pdr that promptly broke, then 20 rearmed with French 75 CN75-50, same as AMX-13/75 which is coincidentally the same A/T stat; they only had 20, were going to issue 1 platoon per infantry battalion, so limit would be 1 I guess?
> thanks - getting the numbers available to 'feel' right can be tricky at this level, especially with so many variants to work with.

2A) Puma HAPC has composite armour
. OK thanks

Arabs
5) Hetzers in the Arab list? Oooops, should be Jagdpanzer IV 75mm L48, limit 1 I think
(The Hetzer could have been in the Israeli list, as they were planning to build them at first, but then opted for turreted tanks instead.)
> great - thanks

6) M52 has an armoured roof
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/pics/105mmsphm52/105mmsphm52.html#M52TOP11
> no idea how that happened - good spot - thanks

7) Syrian T-34/85 pillbox thingy only applies after c1965.
> yes of course

Remove the T-10, it was never exported, not sure why this keeps coming up in Arab lists.
> 

9) Jordanian Hunter missing from aircraft list fot what it's worth.
> indeed ... but it is good to attempt to be thorough

10) The Egyptian Valentine was the 2pdr armed variant, although by 1956 they were gunless OP/HQ tanks for the Archer batteries. A/I stat should be 1/50 surely with 2pdr HE and 1 coax MG?
> that might explain why I could find limited info on them - thanks

11) Remove the Syria only comment from the T-34/85 and T-54/55....
> can do - but did the Jordanians use them?

12) M113 should say Jordan only, not Egypt & Syria only
> yes ... that was my brain working the wrong way around!

13) Is not 2P26 Schmel and AT-1 Snapper 4x4 the same vehicle? They have no MG so A/I = 1/40 is a bit generous for a couple of SMG/AK47 and pistol from the crew.
> good spot - I think I was getting all worked up around the nomenclature debate at that point in time!
There is an interesting discussion to be had around the AP stats for MANPAD SAMs, INF:ATGS and 4x4 ATGWS - I had originally given most of them 1/30 to represent their small arms capabilities - a sort of last resort self defense option. I am also likely to adjust the AP stats for SAMs anyway - as the AP v AT is the same - that will allow me to add proper AP stats to all the INF:SAM, SP:SAM units - as applicable

14) You could add the Hummel for the 1950s Syrian list, although limit = 1
> good call

15) curious about the "Restricted Ammo" rule for Archers and Charioteers, what is that meant to represent?
> lack of HE ammo carried when compared to AT ammo - there appear to be records of crews widely not bothering with the HE rounds, when operating in the SPAT role - but I need to dig up the sources to corroborate that for you - the research was done a while ago, so not fresh in my brain.

16) The T-34/100 and similar but missing T-34/122 were really artillery pieces, not tank destroyers or assault guns, so should be moved to the on-table artillery and off-table artillery sections.
> good call

Mark

Thanks Mark - insightful as always - comments in-line above.

The debate about the IDF HAPCs is one for a separate thread maybe - should they be IFVs or APCs - or maybe they should appear in both sections, but with a restriction that they can only operate in one role in a battle-group?

Likewise - what stats to use for the small-arms for man-packed ATGW and SAMs. A lot of the 4x4 launchers do appear to have an MG, even if it is a light one.

Much appreciated
Mark

The Jordainain Hunter is in my original copy, 3 enrty in the aircraft section underneath the two AH1 varients.

Quote from: Big Insect on 20 June 2022, 09:53:29 AMThe debate about the IDF HAPCs is one for a separate thread maybe - should they be IFVs or APCs

I would treat them as APCs, seeing as they only have one MG generally and troops exit just like any other APC, out the back or over the sides, they don't have firing ports. You can't really do an armoured assault with them.

The whole issue of IFV is a challenging debate, professional wargamers that are ex-servicemen as well as me have found them completely useless if even one enemy tank is about. The Israelies are the only ones that came up with a solution with the HAPC. And note they deliberately left off any heavy armament. IFVs with heavy weapons tend to get used as light tanks with disastrous results, especially by wargamers!

They would however make great tank destroyers and not-bad recce vehicles - a BMP-1P or Bradley with the back stuffed full of ATGW reloads would have been far superior to the M901 or BRDM-2 Spandrel. Anyway, ours is not to reason why (government accountants have a lot to do with it....)

Oh, forgot, the American M901 ITOW vehicle, if it moves over 8kmh cross-country the sites misalign and have to be reset when it next halts, don't know if you have an unreliable or similar rating in CWC2. In my own games I make them do an activation to reset the sights before they can fire.

Quote from: Big Insect on 20 June 2022, 09:53:29 AM11) Remove the Syria only comment from the T-34/85 and T-54/55....
> can do - but did the Jordanians use them?

No, so should say Egypt and Syria only.

Quote from: sultanbev on 20 June 2022, 10:46:41 AMI would treat them as APCs, seeing as they only have one MG generally and troops exit just like any other APC, out the back or over the sides, they don't have firing ports. You can't really do an armoured assault with them.

The whole issue of IFV is a challenging debate, professional wargamers that are ex-servicemen as well as me have found them completely useless if even one enemy tank is about. The Israelies are the only ones that came up with a solution with the HAPC. And note they deliberately left off any heavy armament. IFVs with heavy weapons tend to get used as light tanks with disastrous results, especially by wargamers!

They would however make great tank destroyers and not-bad recce vehicles - a BMP-1P or Bradley with the back stuffed full of ATGW reloads would have been far superior to the M901 or BRDM-2 Spandrel. Anyway, ours is not to reason why (government accountants have a lot to do with it....)

Oh, forgot, the American M901 ITOW vehicle, if it moves over 8kmh cross-country the sites misalign and have to be reset when it next halts, don't know if you have an unreliable or similar rating in CWC2. In my own games I make them do an activation to reset the sights before they can fire.
No, so should say Egypt and Syria only.

Thanks - I wasnt aware of that. There is an 'Unreliable' Special Ability, but I am inclined to consider making the M901 ITOW a Slow Firing vehicle to replicate this. As it limits what it can do in a turn, but I'll check that out.
Cheers
Mark

Arab lists
1. BRDM-2.  Used in 1973 by Egypt and Syria
2. RL-83 Blindicide. In use by at least Egypt in 1956 as 10 launchers captured by British. Source: Hansard
3. RPG-7. In at least limited use in Six Day War by Egypt and en masse by Syria and Egypt in 1973 so dates need fixing
4. BMP-1 deliveries to both Egypt and Syria in 1973 prior to use in October War. Not used prior as far as I know.
5. T-34/85 extensively used in 1967 fighting by Egypt. 
6. T-54/55 used by Egypt and Syria as previously noted
7. M113 user should be Jordan

IDF comments later.

Hope this helps.

Edward

IDF lists

1. AMX-13. Never airportable by IDF. 
2. 3.5" M20 Superbazooka I assume covers a lot of other kit such as 82mm Marnat, 73mm LRAC Mle 50 and some RL-83 Blindicide (source https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/44554-blindicide-info/)
3. RPG-7 in Israeli inventory from 1967 but probably limited use?
4. ATGW Entac and SS-11 - all the comments I have seen say that this was out of use by 1973?
5. BMP-1 captured - must be 1973+ (and after October War so maybe 1974+)?

Edward

Some comments on dates. Frankly these are very difficult to decide. In the basic lists I sent to Mark F the first note is Dates are speculative in many cases. Please bear that in mind as we only have limited information to go on. Also lots of kit is kept in storage, we ceratinly were making spares for Centurions in the early 90's which would indicate that stuff was in storage.

I certainly left out 3 items - Israli M3's with SS11  as there were very few - 4 to 10, same argument applies to the M3 with 90mm , the Sherman with AMX-13 turret, the Egyptians had 10 as experiments.

Quote from: kustenjaeger on 20 June 2022, 11:31:04 AMArab lists
1. BRDM-2.  Used in 1973 by Egypt and Syria
2. RL-83 Blindicide. In use by at least Egypt in 1956 as 10 launchers captured by British. Source: Hansard
3. RPG-7. In at least limited use in Six Day War by Egypt and en masse by Syria and Egypt in 1973 so dates need fixing
4. BMP-1 deliveries to both Egypt and Syria in 1973 prior to use in October War. Not used prior as far as I know.
5. T-34/85 extensively used in 1967 fighting by Egypt. 
6. T-54/55 used by Egypt and Syria as previously noted
7. M113 user should be Jordan

IDF comments later.

Hope this helps.

Edward

All very helpful stuff Edward - thank you - backing up and adding to Mark B's observations.

If I remember correctly (need to check my notes) I think I did wrap the RL-83 Blindicide up with the Bazooka - for both lists

Thanks
Mark

Quote from: kustenjaeger on 20 June 2022, 11:48:12 AMIDF lists

1. AMX-13. Never airportable by IDF. 
2. 3.5" M20 Superbazooka I assume covers a lot of other kit such as 82mm Marnat, 73mm LRAC Mle 50 and some RL-83 Blindicide (source https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/44554-blindicide-info/)
> yes - TBF at the scale we operate at the difference are negligable
3. RPG-7 in Israeli inventory from 1967 but probably limited use?
> agreed but we can include maybe on a -.-[1] basis
4. ATGW Entac and SS-11 - all the comments I have seen say that this was out of use by 1973?
5. BMP-1 captured - must be 1973+ (and after October War so maybe 1974+)?
> yes - good shout

Edward

Replies above - in-line & in-bold

Again appreciated Edward
Thanks
Mark

QuoteSome comments on dates. Frankly these are very difficult to decide. In the basic lists I sent to Mark F the first note is Dates are speculative in many cases. Please bear that in mind as we only have limited information to go on. Also lots of kit is kept in storage, we ceratinly were making spares for Centurions in the early 90's which would indicate that stuff was in storage.

I certainly left out 3 items - Israli M3's with SS11  as there were very few - 4 to 10, same argument applies to the M3 with 90mm , the Sherman with AMX-13 turret, the Egyptians had 10 as experiments.

The Shermans with AMX-13 turrets are in the lists Ian - the list as published is a composite of yours, mine, and a couple of others - that might account for some of the omissions and date changes.

I chose to keep a specific Arab States list, at this time, to coincide with the Pendraken figure launch. There will also be a specific Suez-Crisis list, a separate Iraqi list and larger Egyptian and Syrian lists (amongst others). This is all part of the program to allow players (that want to) to easily focus on specific 'smaller' scale conflicts more easily. Which is why we have separate set of Vietnam lists or Falkland lists or a Portuguese Colonial list (in the works) for example.

With the IDF list, it was just simpler to run it through from 46+. But I suspect that once I (ultimately) get started on the Lebanese's Civil War list, the IDF will reappear as a limited subset of forces.

Thanks
Mark

I posted detailed notes on Israeli ATGW previously, going to have to retype it all again.

Virtually all the early ATGW were in one battalion, the 755th AT Battalion.

SS-10 36 launchers arrived in 1957 in 755th AT Battalion, 6 Batteries@ 6x SS-10 launchers (hence max =6)
1960-1962 added or replaced by 8x quad SS-10 on back of Dodge 4x4 truck (hence max = 2)

1963 replaced by SS-11 on M3 H/T, plus one platoon of 4 in 9th Mech Battalion 1964-1965

By 1967 the 755th AT Battalion had:
1st Battery: M3 + SS-11, attached to 38th Division (number per battery not known, possibly 6, or 3 pltns@ 4)
2nd Battery: M3 + SS-11, on Jordanian front
3rd Battery: M3 + SS-11 on Golan
#th Battery: 6x Jeep/SS-11
~th Battery: Cobra 1600 on Jeeps, used in 1967 war, not after.
35th Para Brigade, had 1 platoon of 6x Jeep/SS-11 and 12x Jeep/106mm M40 in it's brigade AT company in 1967 war.

M3+ 90mm MECAR, 1 platoon in 9th Battalion, 1968
Cobra 2000 were received in 1968, but no data on issue.


In 1969 the 755th A/T Battalion lost M3 H/T+ SS-11, and reformed as:
2 Coys@ 3 platoons@ 4x 2P26
2 Coys@ 3 platoons@ 4-5x Jeep/SS-11
total 27x Jeep/SS-11, 24x 2P26

By 1973 the 755th A/T Battalion had:
1 Company: 12x 2P26
2 Companies sharing 27x Jeep/SS-11 attached to 275th Territorial Brigade on Bar Lev line.

Also, Israel received 6000x M72 LAW on 11th October 1973. They had 50x 84mm M2 Carl Gustav in the navy.

Source since deleted War Online article, previously posted, translated from Hebrew to Russian to English

I do have a lot of Egytian artillery dates, from SIPRI and other sources
122mm M38 howitzer (1959)
122mmL46 M31/37 gun
122mmL54 D74
122mmL40 D30 how (1966)
100mm M1944 BS3 (1961)
25pdr 87mm field gun (194#)
152mm D1 howitzers (1962)
82mm M37 mortar
120mm M43 mortar (1956)
160mm M60 mortar (1966)
240mm M53 mortar
240mm BM-24-12 (1964)
Sa-2 unguided 700mm HE (1973)
130mm M51 (32x 130mm)
132mm BM-13-16 (1959)
122mm BM-21-40 (1968)
130mm M46 (1962)
100mm KS19 AA (1961)
85mm KS12 AA (1958)
140mm BM-14-16 (1962)
152mm D20 (1965)
Frog-7 (1968)
180mm S23 (1972)
9P117 Scud-B (1972)

Mark

Here we go, Egyptian AMX-13/75, just at the end of video
https://youtu.be/FSZXZ4ux_3s
Mentioned in here:
https://www.academia.edu/39505313/SUEZ_1956_NOTES_ON_PLANS_ORDERS_OF_BATTLE_AND_EQUIPMENT

I'm glad you've left out the Egyptian Centurions, because although they had 41 of them in organised service, they only had 10x APDS per tank, Perfidious Albion and all that, so could never see useful combat.

With the Arab States list, I believe that the Jordanians had 105mm Centurions from 1970