Quote from: Big Insect on 03 June 2022, 07:13:29 PMThe M102s are being replaced by the M119-series 105 mm howitzer - which is the British L118 light gun (see British or British Falkland lists). It entered US service in 1989 - and is also an Infantry Gun.

Not quite Mark - the M119 fires US ammunition so does not have the range of the L118. 10000m as opposed to 15000m. OK not relavent to this argument but.

Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 05 June 2022, 05:36:31 AMNot quite Mark - the M119 fires US ammunition so does not have the range of the L118. 10000m as opposed to 15000m. OK not relavent to this argument but.

    

Erm, just a point to note, indirect fire (whether on or off table) for guns has a minimum range of 2000m, further if you want to fire over obstacles such as hills and woods, so using M109s or whatever for on-table indirect fire is a bit weird. Unless of course your table is 7.5m long. In which case they should just use off-table stats and be called in by OPs/HQs as normal.

Whilst all artillery units are trained in anti-tank and point-target shooting (eg bunkers) it is a short range affair for self defence. The Israelis used 175mm M107s to deadly effect in one occasion in 1973 as emergency anti-tank guns, but the fact that they had to meant something had gone horribly wrong somewhere.

Howitzers and field guns firing direct fire 'on table' have poor accuracy, effective range 400m (70% hit chance), maximum effective range 1200m (30% hit chance), so if 4/100 (H) actually means 4/50 against tanks, that is about right for range - would there be a need to note an A/T value of 4/100 (H) at all? and just call it 4/50?
(at 2000m your typical 155mm howitzer is on 05% chance of a hit a tank sized target with HE).

Sounds to me like you've tried to create three lots of stats for artillery units - off table indirect barrages, on-table indirect barrages, on-table direct fire. I would scrub the middle one and just replace with a rule allowing them to be on-table if really desired, using off-table barrage stats, but must be 100cm from the target and in pre-prepared static positions.

Until the advent of the post-cold war Ceasar and Archer and M109A6 Paladin et al, with GPS and super-dupa computers, SP artillery units couldn't just turn up and start firing to OP requests at whim, it took ~15-30 minutes to survey a position and get aligned to the artillery grid, so at least an activation.

And of course, the Soviets had proper anti-tank rounds for their artillery, as did random NATO guns, so each would have their own anti-tank factors.

As an additional thought, I don't think the WW2-era Infantry Gun rule is needed in CWC2, as there aren't any that I am aware of. Maybe the Indians used 3.7" PH into the 1950s, but virtually all IG had been replaced by mortars after WW2.

A question I suspect I know the intended answer to, but the rules as written are unclear... can a weapon with the Howitzer rule fire against Armoured Cars and Halftracks above half range? The rule states that howitzers can only target "AFVs" within half their range, and the Target Table on p.8 (plus the Movement Summary on p.13) have these unit types listed as Hard targets classified separately from AFVs.

Easy - as you guessed the answer is no. The H cariteristic represents a weapon with low muzzle veloicity  requiring a balistic line of flight, so less accurate.

Quote from: sultanbev on 05 June 2022, 08:27:14 AMon-table indirect barrages,

Quote from: sultanbev on 05 June 2022, 08:27:14 AMon-table indirect barrages,

Quote from: sultanbev on 05 June 2022, 08:27:14 AMSounds to me like you've tried to create three lots of stats for artillery units - off table indirect barrages, on-table indirect barrages, on-table direct fire. I would scrub the middle one and just replace with a rule allowing them to be on-table if really desired, using off-table barrage stats, but must be 100cm from the target and in pre-prepared static positions.

That is not the intention Mark - there should be no on-table fired barrage templates.

An on-table artillery unit has direct Line of Sight (LoS) fire at an individual enemy unit (as you say - that is at short range - hence the x/100 | x/100H stats) - which were standard with CWC-I anyway.
An on-table artillery unit can deliver Line of Fire (LoF) shooting - so in effect short range indirect fire  - when directed by a CO/HQ - but again this is still subject to the x/100 | x/100H ranges and effects.

I suspect that the I am not articulating what is intended vey well.
Fundamentally, other than guns under c.100mm (& infantry guns and mortars - and there are of course other odd exceptions) the game is written to be played with the majority of artillery as off-table assets.

Thanks
Mark

In the Saves table it lists various items (-1d6, -2d6, etc., for gun pit, wooden, brick, stone buildings) as "per unit shooting".

Are these not deductions in the number of "To hit" dice, rather than anything to do with Saving?

Would they not be better off in the "Firing modifiers" table?

Quote from: LozzieD on 06 June 2022, 04:17:54 PMIn the Saves table it lists various items (-1d6, -2d6, etc., for gun pit, wooden, brick, stone buildings) as "per unit shooting".

Are these not deductions in the number of "To hit" dice, rather than anything to do with Saving?

Would they not be better off in the "Firing modifiers" table?

An interesting idea - my thoughts had been originally to try and keep all the fortification 'stuff' in one place and one table. I'll certainly take a look at that though.

Many thanks
Mark

Quote from: Superscribe on 04 June 2022, 10:49:33 PMLots of questions and good debates regarding CWC2 rules but my post above seems to have been missed. @Big Insect - your thoughts on this one?

Quote from: Superscribe on 04 June 2022, 10:49:33 PMThe Danger Close rules on P44 are new to CWC and allows either player to use on-table or off-table artillery to attack or defend themselves as part of a close assault.  It says that a 10cm diameter template is used for this and of course with this you could hit your own troops too! Normally only off-table artillery use HE templates for standard indirect fire, as on-table fire use attack dice against one specified target and no template. So now I'm confused! 

I understand why off-table artillery might use a reduced size template for this but not on-table artillery, as they do not use templates under any other circumstances. Is there any reason why on-table artillery use a template for this and do not attack a single target as normal, when using the Danger-Close rule? 

Hi there Chris

Sorry - I had missed this in the early flurry of activity and questions.

This is a 'good spot' and is an errata - the On-table guns will fire as they normally do - so no templates - they fire at the individual target units (same way on-table mortars would do).

Hope that helps with your up & coming game?
Cheers
Mark

Hi Mark. Excellent as I thought and hoped.  With on-table artillery in support of an assault in this way there would be no danger of hitting your own troops (as no template) 

Hi,  just a further point. We noticed the new(?) rule about combining a SAM with a command unit.  Doesn't this mean that as command units can't be targeted by fire that this makes my SAM battery invulnerable?  Previously if my Hinds popped up they would be shot at by the Roland, if I survive I then waste the Roland with my Spirals.  But if the Roland (or Stinger or Vulcan) is part of a command stand I can't target it.  I could use the optional rule for allowing cmd stands to be targeted but if I don't how does the mechanism work??
Thanks in advance

Rob
(Sorry if I missed this qu earlier!)

Quote from: weredoomed2003 on 07 June 2022, 07:27:13 PMHi,  just a further point. We noticed the new(?) rule about combining a SAM with a command unit.  Doesn't this mean that as command units can't be targeted by fire that this makes my SAM battery invulnerable?  Previously if my Hinds popped up they would be shot at by the Roland, if I survive I then waste the Roland with my Spirals.  But if the Roland (or Stinger or Vulcan) is part of a command stand I can't target it.  I could use the optional rule for allowing cmd stands to be targeted but if I don't how does the mechanism work??
Thanks in advance

Rob
(Sorry if I missed this qu earlier!)

Hi Rob
Adding a SAM (or other AA unit) to a Command unit does in effect make that unit unable to be targeted directly, as it is no longer technically a unit but an upgrade.

However, the intention was not to allow larger vehicle (Gepards, Vulcans, Roland etc) based AA units to do this (I'll double check the rules wording) but only SAM:INF originally.
That was primarily to allow Soviet HQs to have their attached MANPAD SAMs or for Blowpipes, Stingers etc. to be attached to an HQ/CO.

I'll review and come back on that.
Cheers
Mark

Sorry if I missed this somewhere, but is there rules/descriptions for ICM and PGM munitions for arty anywhere? Also is there a spot on the Arty table in the army lists where FASCAM should go?

Also, IR and Thermal Imager are missing form the Abilities section. I know they are in the night fighting section. Same with Stabilized.

Quote from: Smartbomb on 09 June 2022, 12:31:34 AMSorry if I missed this somewhere, but is there rules/descriptions for ICM and PGM munitions for arty anywhere? Also is there a spot on the Arty table in the army lists where FASCAM should go?

Also, IR and Thermal Imager are missing form the Abilities section. I know they are in the night fighting section. Same with Stabilized.

Artillery types are Page:65/66 - but PGM has been moved to the Optional Rules
IR/TI are covered under Nightfighting Page: 69
Stabilisation is on Page:40

Not all Abilities are listed in the Abilities list as we just end up with a lot of duplication (as has happened with Sniper Team).

The intention is to create a QRS of all the Abilities and Special Rules - including those that are specific to very few (or only one) list. It is on the to-do list.

Cheers
Mark

Mark you got the 1990+ US infantry walking - no M2 varients in the Armour or Transport sections just the CFV's armoured cav versions in rules (they do be in test lists though)