With the recent surge in popularity of Kickstarter projects, are they a good or bad thing?
For those unfamiliar with them, Kickstarter is a website which allows you to advertise any given project for crowdfunding (http://www.kickstarter.com/ (http://www.kickstarter.com/)). This works by people seeing the project, and then pledging their financial support, working towards a set goal. There are various levels of support within each Kickstarter, and the person receives something in return, dependant on the amount they have pledged. So, for a $5 pledge, they may receive a single figure for example, $30 they get a full set of 10 miniatures, going up to the top level pledge where they may get a fully painted set, designing their own figure, a signed piece of artwork, etc. Once the pledges go past the predetermined goal level, then the project gets the green light, everyone's accounts are debited with the pledges, and the company gets their money.
There have been mixed successes I've seen so far, from unfortunate projects that receive almost no backing, right up to Reaper's recent Kickstarter, which raised $3.5 million!!! :o It's an interesting concept, but it does throw up some questions.
- Is it a innovative way of getting your idea out there and visible in a competitive market place?
- Does the original Kickstarter campaign saturate the company's own market, meaning there are no sales to be had once the figures are on general sale?
- Will we start to see problems occurring where people have underestimated the amount they need to bring a project to market, and find they don't have the funds to complete it?
- Does it create a very effective buyers market, where simple supply and demand dictate what we see produced?
- Does it potentially affect the motivation of a company, when the financial risk of failure is highly reduced for them?
- Has anyone pledged themselves, and what did you think of it as a concept?
:-\
(DISCLAIMER: As usual, this is nothing to do with Pendraken, just something I thought would make for an interesting discussion. The Crossover Miniatures stocked by Minibits were created through this method, and I know Rusti found it to be a great success, and he'll be using the process again for his next batch.)
I bought into both the 'Schlock Mercenary' (game based on comic) and 'Order Of The Stick' (book reprint) Kickstarter drives.
Both did very well, because they had a huge fan base already, and they were launching product I would either use or have bought eventually for a much higher price.
However, it would have to be something I am hugely interested in to get me to pledge again, hence I haven't gone into any of the massive amounts of computer games or 28mm figure starters there seam to be around.
I did for Ogre and another one that failed to raise the $600 it needed. Seems to be a lot of these projects but haven't really found another one to follow. But I agree with Leon and I always wondered what happens if the goal that was set wasn't enough to finish the project. :-\
Could something like this be used to get the Aztecs going? It's really been a long time.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 18 September 2012, 11:21:45 PM
Could something like this be used to get the Aztecs going? It's really been a long time.
I'm not sure there'd be enough people pledging for any 10mm range to be viable.
Let's say a range was 20 codes, 2 figures per code. With the sculpting and moulding, you've got about £1200 ($2000) of investment needed. With a full army pack currently costing £25, combined with the need to be offering people something at a discounted rate to get them to pledge, the average pledge might only be £20 or even less. So we'd need to find at least 60 people willing to pledge into an Aztec range before it hit the goal?
:-q
meh....don't talk to me about crowd funding..... >:( :'( ;)
Quote from: Leon on 18 September 2012, 11:38:37 PM
I'm not sure there'd be enough people pledging for any 10mm range to be viable.
Let's say a range was 20 codes, 2 figures per code. With the sculpting and moulding, you've got about £1200 ($2000) of investment needed. With a full army pack currently costing £25, combined with the need to be offering people something at a discounted rate to get them to pledge, the average pledge might only be £20 or even less. So we'd need to find at least 60 people willing to pledge into an Aztec range before it hit the goal?
:-q
:-\
Is that likely with the (currently, almost) 1,000 members of the forum ?
Be interesting to see if many 'jump in' to support it.
It's got to depend on the overall popularity of 'the period' with so many other ranges available at present.
Cheers - Phil
Other 'Kickstarters' can be used to link in (if you have sponsored this, you might like to back...) so you may pick up custom that way, plus TMP notice.
However, here I think it will only have a limited use, may be one or two ranges, before its interest wains. It would also have to be something guaranteed to sell (like the Schlock Game where he has thousands of readers a day on his webcomic).
Personnally, I'd kickstart a project by sending Techno an email with lots of details and a large cheque. :D
BTW how are those Limber riders doing? Doth thou need any more info Techno? :P
Its a really interesting and innovative concept to bring funds to smaller/niche enterprises.
However, i cant help but feel that we are currently riding a wave and at some point the bubble will burst (and the mixed metaphors will get worse).
My prediction - in the next 12-24 months a huge kickstarter project will go completely belly up and no one will see the money that has been taken. There will then be a subsequent drop in confidence which might lead to a more rational marketplace in the fall-out.
Call me Cassandra 8)
Quote from: mad lemmey on 19 September 2012, 08:13:16 AM
Personnally, I'd kickstart a project by sending Techno an email with lots of details and a large cheque. :D
BTW how are those Limber riders doing? Doth thou need any more info Techno? :P
Sounds wonderful to me Lemmey !....I
like large cheques ! ;D ;D
I'll give you a shout as soon as the current limber/outriders turn up....
Shouldn't take too long to do those.They'll probably take ages and
ages to do, so be prepared to remortgage your home ! ;) ;) :D
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: goat major on 19 September 2012, 08:27:50 AM
Its a really interesting and innovative concept to bring funds to smaller/niche enterprises.
However, i cant help but feel that we are currently riding a wave and at some point the bubble will burst (and the mixed metaphors will get worse).
My prediction - in the next 12-24 months a huge kickstarter project will go completely belly up and no one will see the money that has been taken. There will then be a subsequent drop in confidence which might lead to a more rational marketplace in the fall-out.
Call me Cassandra 8)
Hello Cassandra. :P
Got to agree with you Cas, that wave will collapse wiping out some surfers. South Sea Bubble for that wave? Dotcom boom? All looks familiar...
Quote from: goat major on 19 September 2012, 08:27:50 AM
Its a really interesting and innovative concept to bring funds to smaller/niche enterprises.
However, i cant help but feel that we are currently riding a wave and at some point the bubble will burst (and the mixed metaphors will get worse).
My prediction - in the next 12-24 months a huge kickstarter project will go completely belly up and no one will see the money that has been taken. There will then be a subsequent drop in confidence which might lead to a more rational marketplace in the fall-out.
Call me Cassandra 8)
You do have a strong point there.
Imho only established traders should do this kind of finance. I mean, we all know some crook could just deliver a sweet talk and great pics, we buy it and they run off with the money.
Happened before the net, will happen at kickstarter, will happen in other forms. Having said that it is up to YOU as a donor (you really ain't anything else) if you WANT to support that company.
@Leon: I do see the potential for Pendraken here. 60/1000 supporters means 6 % of us have to pledge. Call me Cassandra 2 but I feel people are willing to invest 10 - 20 USD for such a venture. Mind you it is not only people wanting something back for their financing. Some will be happy to donate a few bucks in order to be able to buy a single mini, a pack or just see a range being "done".
Aztecs is not really my thing (at the moment) but for example modern forces would be. So maybe 5 bucks on the Aztecs and 30 or so on a modern British force, or Foreign Legion or.... well whatever, you get the picture.
Hi guys, successful Kickstarter here. I loved the experience and think it is a wonderful tool.
Quote- Is it a innovative way of getting your idea out there and visible in a competitive market place?
Of course it it! Crowdfunding is to ecommerce what blogging is to traditional news. Blogging and instant news has destroyed newspapers and other institutions that were the ONLY place to get serious news only 15 years ago. Now they are figuring out how to keep up with the sites offering small, flexible sources of what folks want. It’s a great way for someone like me to get something out to market without the traditional means of manufacturing miniatures or even having ever met someone in person who does.
Quote- Does the original Kickstarter campaign saturate the company's own market, meaning there are no sales to be had once the figures are on general sale?
While it does slow the original sales as many folks will already have it, but you have to figure in some profit into the mix, if MAX profit is what you are after. I needed the original profit to get started, pay for the sculpting, molding, and lead. But since the original kickstarter, I have sold enough minis to pay for the sculpting up front the next round, so I can now only use Kickstarter to raise the remaining money needed. The next release shouldn’t need any Kickstarter help, then I can sell the figures at full cost off the bat.
Quote- Will we start to see problems occurring where people have underestimated the amount they need to bring a project to market, and find they don't have the funds to complete it?
This will happen someday because many people are stupid people. There are many issues to take into account when producing and delivering miniatures. NONE of which I knew before I started looking into it, about 8 months before the kickstarter. I was looking into importing another small UK range and started looking into the costs associated with improrting and selling and shipping miniatures. When I looked into producing miniatures, there was A LOT to learn, but I did it as in depth as I could. I have created websites for about 5-6 miniatures companies in the past 4 years, so I had some contacts to call and youtube supplied the rest. Not everyone will research for the proper amount of info before getting started. Someone already in the business is the most logical choice as they know the costs already. But Kickstarter is also there to help make some folks dreams come true (like it did for an outsider like me). But there will be some failures. Choose well and make sure the page is put together by someone who knows their a$$***e from their elbow. You can tell a lot by the info on the kickstarter page. :)
Quote- Does it create a very effective buyers market, where simple supply and demand dictate what we see produced?
Exactly so. My first Kickstarter started by me emailing a sculptor that I knew wanted to start a range, but none of the big boys (established companies) that he worked with would ask for a super hero range as there is no money in it. So he sculpted 4 figures and we showed them off, I asked for what I absolutely needed to get it started, and reached 160% of my goal. That's free market to the tee, and every backer got the figures at about 75% of the retail and a few little extras. Some folks even got to design their own hero! That's fantastic in my mind. Everyone got what they wanted out of it.
It blows my mind that people try to make fun of it or the old guard that won't even discuss it as it disgusts them that folks are allowing the general public to take part in the industry.Quote
- Does it potentially affect the motivation of a company, when the financial risk of failure is highly reduced for them?
Not at all I would think. This is the perspective of established companies that have ‘paid their dues.’ But all my risk was put in before the kickstarter was funded. Once funded, it’s a done deal and you still have to do a good job. Though I suppose you could head to the Caymans on all that dough, but most likely you’ll follow through on what you said you wanted to do. It takes weeks or months to get your kickstarter page together and make it look good, not to mention all the other stuff you have to do to get ready. It still takes time and money to execute. I know what I will make this week at my day job, I have a contract that lasts throughout the year, but I go in and do a good job every day.
Quote- Has anyone pledged themselves, and what did you think of it as a concept?
I love it and I pledge as often as I can. There are some truly original concepts on there and some big risks you won’t find big companies even going near.
Quote
-Let's say a range was 20 codes, 2 figures per code. With the sculpting and moulding, you've got about £1200 ($2000) of investment needed. With a full army pack currently costing £25, combined with the need to be offering people something at a discounted rate to get them to pledge, the average pledge might only be £20 or even less. So we'd need to find at least 60 people willing to pledge into an Aztec range before it hit the goal?
Leon, you don’t need to fund the whole project! In fact they recommend that you only fund a percentage. I suppose you have to wonder if you would want to make a range that only 60 people wanted? If the answer is yes, go for it! If you can get the sculpting and molding paid for, then every pack you sell from there on out is much more profitable.
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 19 September 2012, 11:45:30 AM
You do have a strong point there.
Imho only established traders should do this kind of finance. I mean, we all know some crook could just deliver a sweet talk and great pics, we buy it and they run off with the money.
Happened before the net, will happen at kickstarter, will happen in other forms. Having said that it is up to YOU as a donor (you really ain't anything else) if you WANT to support that company.
I think this is how many folks felt about eBay when it started, but it works, even though many people are dishonest, many more people are not.
I wasn't an established company, just a guy with a plan who knew folks in established companies. Everyone else who took part in producing the miniatures, sculptor, mold makers, and casters are all very well established, but it was my first rodeo. I think we did rather well.
Respectfully, I think the word donor couldn't be farther from the truth. All the donors to my Kickstarter received exactly the minis the wanted at 75% retail cost.
Quote from: Leon on 18 September 2012, 11:38:37 PM
I'm not sure there'd be enough people pledging for any 10mm range to be viable.
Let's say a range was 20 codes, 2 figures per code. With the sculpting and moulding, you've got about £1200 ($2000) of investment needed. With a full army pack currently costing £25, combined with the need to be offering people something at a discounted rate to get them to pledge, the average pledge might only be £20 or even less. So we'd need to find at least 60 people willing to pledge into an Aztec range before it hit the goal?
:-q
So they're just not going to happen? :(
Cloud funding's an interesting proposition. It seems a bit like micro-scale venture capitalism to me.
I guess the problem i see is the problem with established suppliers. The niche market figures are never going to sell well enough to make the ranges viable, which is why traditional sellers don't do them.
Also, i'm struggling to see the incentive for someone to pledge money.
So you get a one off batch of figures at 25% discount?
But now you've potentially kicked off the career of someone else who will go on to make lots more money - including presumably money out of you as you buy future product?
Wouldn't the capitalist in you prefer to 'buy shares', or 'invest' for a better long term return in this venture?
I'd prefer to see a cooperative financial model.
That said, anything that gets funding to small start-ups in the hobby is a good thing surely?
Or is it?
After all, we already have a very large number of companies supplying a niche hobby. Are there too many already? Wouldn't it be better to consolidate all those into perhaps 1 supplier per scale?
Who knows...
But it's moot as it won't happen. And we as hobbyists don't want it to. Look what happens to the 'big players' who corner a market - scorn, bile and hate in torrents is poured on them by the hobbyists.
Um...
I'm rambling aren't i?
OK, i'll stop.
Quote from: Leon on 18 September 2012, 11:38:37 PM
I'm not sure there'd be enough people pledging for any 10mm range to be viable.
Let's say a range was 20 codes, 2 figures per code. With the sculpting and moulding, you've got about £1200 ($2000) of investment needed. With a full army pack currently costing £25, combined with the need to be offering people something at a discounted rate to get them to pledge, the average pledge might only be £20 or even less. So we'd need to find at least 60 people willing to pledge into an Aztec range before it hit the goal?
:-q
Don't forget that you could tempt potential supporters with any items from your back catalogue of minis with your support levels, I think as an established firm you'd be fine to get funded in this way, only thing is, your going to have to have mass appeal, and not everyone wants or needs 10mm Aztecs.
To get around this you could offer a choice of different figure packs and option other than just aztecs. I myself wouldn't support it if all I was going to get aztecs, but I would if there were other goodies from your ranges...
From my past Indiegogo campaign I have learned a great deal, and even though I failed epic (yeah, I suppose I underestimated what was needed in the first place, etc.....) I am still going to relaunch with a kickstarter next year. I am in the process of getting the sculpts done one at a time as and when I can afford it (Getting the greens done first would have probably got more support in the first place)
http://thegrinningskull.wordpress.com/2012/09/14/15mm-oggam-sculpt-almost-final/ (http://thegrinningskull.wordpress.com/2012/09/14/15mm-oggam-sculpt-almost-final/)
The sculpt has certainly added some support for getting them done and by the time the greens in the line are done, I should have enough for a win (and I am win!!)
Im doing loads of market research next time to make sure that everything is right and hopefully it'll be a success.
There is a good report here about crowdfunding and the RPG market with stats, its a good read if you want to gauge success Vs fails etc, best strategies and so on....
http://qitsune.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/a-great-market-study-on-kickstarter-success/ (http://qitsune.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/a-great-market-study-on-kickstarter-success/)
QuoteAlso, i'm struggling to see the incentive for someone to pledge money.
So you get a one off batch of figures at 25% discount?
Let's look at it. You've been given what you want at a discount. Let's not forget that product would not have been created if it were not funded in this way. So you have helped create the product as well.
QuoteBut now you've potentially kicked off the career of someone else who will go on to make lots more money - including presumably money out of you as you buy future product?
Talk about presuming. :) I think "lots more money" is a possibility, but in my case you will just do your part to insure more models. So what you are doing is helping to insure that the toys you want will be available.
Quote
Wouldn't the capitalist in you prefer to 'buy shares', or 'invest' for a better long term return in this venture?
I'd prefer to see a cooperative financial model.
That just isn't what this is. It's a reward system for folks backing a project. Not an investment, if you are going to look it as an investment without an investors reward, you will certainly be disappointed in the process. Many people that have a problem with Kickstarter are trying to compare it to oranges. It's new and different, you have to judge it on it's own merit.
An investment or 'buy shares' arrangement just isn't going to work. It's too complicated and you need lots of lawyers to make it work. :)
I always find it interesting how supportive folks are of the current way of doing things. A larger company says "this is what is available, take it or leave it." They have no problem with that company spending the piles of money they make on hookers and blow in the Caribbean. But offer someone the opportunity to get a very niche figure produced for a discount, and the questions of 'what's in it for me?' pop up. Or, 'you want me to help you out?' seems like a reasonable response suddenly.
I don't mean to sound harsh with the last paragraph as I'm enjoying the debate Luddite, just trying to get quick responses out at work. :)
QuoteThey have no problem with that company spending the piles of money they make on hookers and blow in the Caribbean.
Wow, if i had known that miniature companies had this in mind with the proceeds, I really hope that my next campaign gets 100%, although I think Amsterdam would be a better bet with the Hookers and the Blow....I would have started a minis company years ago... ;)
Quote from: Luddite on 19 September 2012, 01:29:31 PM
After all, we already have a very large number of companies supplying a niche hobby. Are there too many already? Wouldn't it be better to consolidate all those into perhaps 1 supplier per scale?
Who knows...
Very possibly, and I think we'll see a lot of consolidation in the next 10 years. There are many companies which have sprung up on the UK circuit, in my mind, due to the economic situation, and people starting their own businesses as regular jobs are so insecure. Unfortunately, not all of these will be able to survive beyond the 'honeymoon' period, and I think they'll slowly get bought up by the bigger guys.
This is probably a separate discussion though!
Quote from: crossover on 19 September 2012, 02:39:03 PM
But offer someone the opportunity to get a very niche figure produced for a discount, and the questions of 'what's in it for me?' pop up. Or, 'you want me to help you out?' seems like a reasonable response suddenly.
That's something I'd not considered actually, and it does ring true.
Quote from: i_am_win on 19 September 2012, 02:11:27 PM
From my past Indiegogo campaign I have learned a great deal, and even though I failed epic (yeah, I suppose I underestimated what was needed in the first place, etc.....) I am still going to relaunch with a kickstarter next year. I am in the process of getting the sculpts done one at a time as and when I can afford it (Getting the greens done first would have probably got more support in the first place)
I was surprised that your project didn't get off the ground, and as I followed it, I did wonder whether it would have received a more positive response through Kickstarter?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 19 September 2012, 12:37:30 PM
So they're just not going to happen? :(
They'll happen, just not through this method. Our requests method is similar, the only difference being that we don't ask for any money up front!
Quote from: Techno on 19 September 2012, 06:36:51 AM
It's got to depend on the overall popularity of 'the period' with so many other ranges available at present.
I think that's the key for us, in that we've already covered all the popular mainstream stuff now, that any new range only appeals to a smaller group anyway. That's the theory behind the requests, where we can see how viable it is to create something. There are still ranges/items we've never turned a profit on, and some we never will do, but they can be balanced out against the solid sellers like WW2, Naps, ACW, AWI, etc, etc.
QuoteI was surprised that your project didn't get off the ground, and as I followed it, I did wonder whether it would have received a more positive response through Kickstarter?
Although it didn't do so well, I did get loads of positive stuff from it and it's getting better support now as we speak (also many possibilties of stocking my line when they're done form retailers I contacted and such) I think because people don't quite yet grasp the concept of crowdfunding, coupled with the fact like you said about niche products (as mine is) and Indiegogo isn't as popular as Kickstarter (I had to use them as Kickstarter needed a US account, this will change however this autumn when they allow european projects)
I will have another go at it though, but with Kickstarter this time after the new year when I have the first load of greens done. If that fails, I'll probably try and sell the line on or shelve it until I can raise more funds....
Quote from: Leon on 18 September 2012, 11:38:37 PM
I'm not sure there'd be enough people pledging for any 10mm range to be viable.
Let's say a range was 20 codes, 2 figures per code. With the sculpting and moulding, you've got about £1200 ($2000) of investment needed. With a full army pack currently costing £25, combined with the need to be offering people something at a discounted rate to get them to pledge, the average pledge might only be £20 or even less. So we'd need to find at least 60 people willing to pledge into an Aztec range before it hit the goal?
:-q
Ok I am not interested in Aztecs at all. However I could be tempted into helping a kickstart program with someone or a company I trusted. Particuarly if the discount was given an a range I am interested in rather than the new range.
I think we all agree that we can trust Pendraken to the tune of £20.
Yes this does mean Pendraken get a new range of figures "on the cheap". But those who have invested also get some figures on the cheap. Thats a Win/Win situation.
You could argue Pendraken may win more in the long term as they have another range. Bur the more ranges Pendraken has the more viable it is as a company, the more likely it will stay in business and we get the very good service from Leon and co.
How many of us have pre-ordered stuff for collection at a show and paid up front as someone else was collecting them.
All you are actually doing is pre- ordering the figures in the same way . Its just a longer wait to get them :)
Now that sounds reasonable!
Maybe there is a funding option, where you can choose 'aztec' or whatever new rhe range is as your reward, or you choose an equal value from another range.
If you have a look at the Kickstarterfor Order of The Stick, Richard did much the same thing.
I like the way the conversation is going, however you have to be careful. Kickstarter is intended as a way to produce new projects, not a way to source income for income's sake.
People on kickstarter seem to be dubious of projects that try to resell current items, and they should be. It is intended to bring new projects to light. If you have something you already sell, that's what sales are for. Kickstarter is for bringing things to life that wouldn't see life if it weren't for Kickstarter.
Kick starter failures - I'm sure these will happen, but this happens with current company structures, many of whom have taken customer money, but not delivered a product. To say nothing of supplier's left out of pocket. The only advantage with a kick starter project, that gets funding but fails to deliver is that each person is only out a small amount. Also due to the nature of the funding, a lot of people need to believe in the company before it can start, so it is harder to have a weak plan. But I'm sure some will fail, probably more likely due to underestimating the work / costs involved rather than fraud.
For established companies - I think for established companies it should be easier for them to use Kickstarter to cover new ranges / products. I think the reasons for this would include; Reputation, customers have already seen that the company can produce product. Less costs to be covered by kickstarter - the company is probably already covering its overheads, it only needs to cover the extra costs of the new range, whereas a startup has to cover everything with the new product. Marketing - the company already has customers who are likely to buy a new product, they have a market presence, etc.
Reward levels - this is quite interesting, I assume a kickstarter can offer anything in return for a pledge. There could be a low value pledge that is essentially a gift, there is the product being produced (with or without a discount) there could be all sorts of other rewards. The idea from Crossover of allowing design choice, is good as it is high value to the customer, but costs the company very little as they would have had to do the design work anyway. I'm sure a company could offer a 5% discount voucher (against any product) for a pledge level - though it would be hard to judge where to price this.
Why pledge money - well the main answer has to be to get something that won't happen otherwise. If you think that the product will appear anyway, then you can wait. But I think generally the idea is that the level of risk for an individual customer is so low that they will be willing to put in their 10-50 quid. Whereas a conventional investment model would be looking for 10s of thousands per investor. I think kickstarter is more of a method of buying something, rather than investing in the traditional sense, were you are looking to make a return on your money, though at a potentially high risk.
Any way, lots of words...
Hadn't heard of Kickstarters until this thread, I think I understand it now.
I do have a question or two though.
Example
Lets say Pendraken get £1200 in pledges to make a 10mm Aztec range. This then goes to the top of the requests 'tree' as it were. Now then, the sculptors Pendraken currently use are already busy making the existing stuff on the requests tree, on top of stuff that Pendraken might want to see themselves.
The question then is, are their other sculptors out there that can do the work, that are available? And if so, does Pendraken have the extra mould-making capacity to make the moulds (or if they are contract made, are their the mould makers out there who can do the moulds) or would they use that Kickstarter money to hire extra staff for that production run?
In general, is there the logistic ability, if you will, to take advantage of the Kickstarter money?
On a separate note, how does the pledge money work for tax purposes? Is it taxable income in that tax year? Is it capital investment that is tax-deductable? Or does it 'go under the mattress@? ;)
Mark
Quote from: sultanbev on 19 September 2012, 11:03:03 PM
Lets say Pendraken get £1200 in pledges to make a 10mm Aztec range. This then goes to the top of the requests 'tree' as it were. Now then, the sculptors Pendraken currently use are already busy making the existing stuff on the requests tree, on top of stuff that Pendraken might want to see themselves.
The question then is, are their other sculptors out there that can do the work, that are available? And if so, does Pendraken have the extra mould-making capacity to make the moulds (or if they are contract made, are their the mould makers out there who can do the moulds) or would they use that Kickstarter money to hire extra staff for that production run?
In general, is there the logistic ability, if you will, to take advantage of the Kickstarter money?
If it was us, we'd probably give the extra work to our current sculptors I'd think. Like others in the current climate, most of them are always on the lookout for more work. The moulding might cause a slight issue, but only in that we'd have to knock other stuff down the queue slightly, as we do churn out a lot of moulds for ourselves and other companies now.
Quote from: sultanbev on 19 September 2012, 11:03:03 PM
On a separate note, how does the pledge money work for tax purposes? Is it taxable income in that tax year? Is it capital investment that is tax-deductable? Or does it 'go under the mattress@? ;)
I'd assume it just goes down as an income stream, like a regular sale, and would then be offset against the sculpting / moulding / casting bills at the end of the tax year.
Can't agree with you, Luddite (with respect to your rank, sir). Monopoly is dangerous for all manner of reasons; stifles the creative aspects, limits you to one maker's interpretation, and is very vulnerable to financial abuse.
Quote from: crossover on 19 September 2012, 11:59:09 AM
I think this is how many folks felt about eBay when it started, but it works, even though many people are dishonest, many more people are not.
I wasn't an established company, just a guy with a plan who knew folks in established companies. Everyone else who took part in producing the miniatures, sculptor, mold makers, and casters are all very well established, but it was my first rodeo. I think we did rather well.
Respectfully, I think the word donor couldn't be farther from the truth. All the donors to my Kickstarter received exactly the minis the wanted at 75% retail cost.
You may also be an exception from the rule. There are many many ways how the "donor" can be rewarded. Some shemes only rewarding pledges over a certain limit. Lets say, pledge 20 and you get 12 worth of figures.
Others like yourself will give figs at a discount, the ways of handling this are basically endless....
Don`t get me started on ebay. Yes I still use it but just because the alternatives do not draw the crowd ebay still does. Now call me a pedant but publicly announcing you did not know you needed a banking licence for ebays latest sheme (taking money from buyers and forwarding it to sellers after confirmed delivery) you should not be in business because of stupidity.
Yes you do have dishonest people and if you do not know the ways to escalate with ebay and paypal you can get burned. But it happens also offline and has happened before.
Kickstarters - like I mentioned before - do have advantages and disadvantages. One should always question themselves "Do I trust this person for X amount of money". Every business decision should be made with this in mind.
Agreed you do have lots of fantastic ideas out there but some of them are just interesting for a limited set of people so they are not becoming reality.
Mentioning monopolies: See it from the other side people. GW currently looses customers on all sides. I do not wish to analyse this in all depth but they have acqired a quasi monopoly in 28mm gaming and alienated their clients (>75 % of them) with several "bad moves" over the last 4 or 5 years. Yes they are not dead yet but looking strictly at numbers and the fact that the average 12 year old buyer spends rather on the newest videogame than to actually build and paint those figs I predict massive problems for GW in the next few years. A loyal customer base of 25 % or less just isn`t good enough especially if you price thiose people out by raising your prices time and again.
Empirical evidence? Here I am - I switched my scifi gaming to other companies including Pendraken. For me there is simply more value there.
And that is another point for/against Kickstarters. Is there VALUE for you?
The donor mentality can also help there and hence I used that word. Donating you also get something in return, maybe not even phisically (Blood donor, organ donor...) or you "donate" your time in volunteering. You cannot argue that some people who do these things do not feel energized or "happy" when they can do something good.
If your sculptors have spare sculpting capacity, refer them to Andy Kirk at Heroics & Ros, he might have work for them if they can do 6mm. Although he is off on honeymoon until the end of the month...
http://www.heroicsandros.co.uk/contact.html
Mark
Quote from: FierceKitty on 20 September 2012, 01:41:54 AM
Monopoly is dangerous for all manner of reasons; stifles the creative aspects, limits you to one maker's interpretation, and is very vulnerable to financial abuse.
(http://screenshots.fr.sftcdn.net/fr/scrn/59000/59810/monopoly-25.jpg)
Quote from: sultanbev on 20 September 2012, 12:57:53 PM
If your sculptors have spare sculpting capacity, refer them to Andy Kirk at Heroics & Ros, he might have work for them if they can do 6mm. Although he is off on honeymoon until the end of the month...
http://www.heroicsandros.co.uk/contact.html
Mark
Ooooh...Ta Mark.
Always on the lookout for stuff that doesn't give me a conflict on interests....
Haven't done any 6mm properly since Ral Partha,
yonks ago. ;)
Cheers - Phil.
This is something that I would definitely support depending on the subject. Aztecs don’t do it for me. Who knows this maybe is a good way to bring in new people to the scale.
I think it could be a good way of introducing a new rule with a starter pack by Pendraken...
Pay for the print...and have 2 armies in the pack.
Quote from: barbarian on 20 September 2012, 04:42:45 PM
I think it could be a good way of introducing a new rule with a starter pack by Pendraken...
Pay for the print...and have 2 armies in the pack.
This seems to be a very popular way of funding boardgames judging by the number of competitions there are (were?! - haven't been a regular there for a while :( ) on Boardgamegeek.com (http://Boardgamegeek.com). Indeed, for some companies, it seems to be their
modus operandi.
They presumably go through the traditional design and play-test process, do a bit of market research and promotion which helps generate a buzz about a game, then launch a kickstarter to fund the print run. As I understand it, most boardgames only have a single print run, so this works well.
Quote from: general_btsherman on 20 September 2012, 04:12:06 PM
This is something that I would definitely support depending on the subject. Aztecs don’t do it for me. Who knows this maybe is a good way to bring in new people to the scale.
Aztecs do it
to people, not
for them. With nasty clumsy knives of volcanic glass. And they stew you in chocolate sauce afterwards.
Ah, the things one posts to make it to the next promotion!
Quote from: FierceKitty on 21 September 2012, 02:16:38 AM
And they stew you in chocolate sauce afterwards.
Ah, the things one posts to make it to the next promotion!
That's another piece of fascinating information...I'd always assumed it was sweet chilli sauce that they used. ;)
Cheers - Phil. (You've only got 17 to go now...Get on with it !)
Like this?
Uh-huh! ;)
OK, I shall.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 21 September 2012, 02:16:38 AM
And they stew you in chocolate sauce afterwards.
Do they then throw you to lesbians? ;D
If so I might be more interested in Aztecs than I thought :d
Greetings
I've pledged for a couple of Kickstarters that were at fairly different ends of the spectrum.
One was IIRC US$10 for a pdf RPG companion which was pretty miuch written but the stretch goals added more content and everyone who pledged also got iterative drafts to comment on and use early. A good experience.
The other is a board game with 28mm SF miniatures (Sedition Wars). Here I pledged about $145 inc p&p for core box plus add-ons - the stretch goals here added both to the box contents going on sale and specials for those pledging. In this case the game materials and artwork were in layout and many of the figures were designed. Presupposing that this happens there'll be a delivery in December and in March or thereabouts with a lot of stuff. I got in at the end where it was clear that, absent a major problem, the value for money should be very good for those pledging. In this case the KS total was around $975,000.
Regards
Edward
Leon,
Would you and Dave be interested in using some of the suggestions here to kickstart a new range ? I think it might be worth a seeing if you get enough people interested.
Interesting recent article on the BBC about this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19347120 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19347120)
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 28 September 2012, 09:46:12 AM
Leon,
Would you and Dave be interested in using some of the suggestions here to kickstart a new range ? I think it might be worth a seeing if you get enough people interested.
It's not something we've actively looked at, as the requests area does a similar job. The only added benefit of the Kickstarter would be to have the funds available earlier in the process, meaning that it wouldn't take anything out of the regular design budget. It'd be interesting finding a range which would bring in enough interest/pledges to make it worthwhile.
And before he jumps in, Aztecs wouldn't be it...! :D
You know, he has almost convinced me to sculpt one aztec warrior, just to get him quiet.
Lol ;)!
That'll be a no on my 15mm Napoleonic Ghurkas and Tibetans then =)
I didn't say a word!
Some interesting examples of the ups and downs of the KS method:
Beyond the Gates of Antares - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037958218/beyond-the-gates-of-antares (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037958218/beyond-the-gates-of-antares)
A Sci-Fi universe project, led by Rick Priestley. With a £300k goal, 6 weeks in it had reached £100k with only a fortnight to go, and was cancelled yesterday.
Empire of the Dead - Requiem - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/832150598/empire-of-the-dead-requiem-0 (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/832150598/empire-of-the-dead-requiem-0)
This one is from West Wind, building on their successful Empire of the Dead range, with a plan to add another 80 odd figures. With a goal of only £5k, it reached it's target within 2 hours, and in it's first day live, is currently on £20k pledged. There's still 39 days to go, so this one could hit some quite impressive numbers.
Minarions have done one for a 1/56 armoured car:
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/hispano-suiza-mc-36-funding-project?c=gallery
but looks to have a short investment period!
Mark
Quote from: Leon on 14 February 2013, 08:04:48 PM
Some interesting examples of the ups and downs of the KS method:
Beyond the Gates of Antares - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037958218/beyond-the-gates-of-antares (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037958218/beyond-the-gates-of-antares)
A Sci-Fi universe project, led by Rick Priestley. With a £300k goal, 6 weeks in it had reached £100k with only a fortnight to go, and was cancelled yesterday.
Empire of the Dead - Requiem - http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/832150598/empire-of-the-dead-requiem-0 (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/832150598/empire-of-the-dead-requiem-0)
This one is from West Wind, building on their successful Empire of the Dead range, with a plan to add another 80 odd figures. With a goal of only £5k, it reached it's target within 2 hours, and in it's first day live, is currently on £20k pledged. There's still 39 days to go, so this one could hit some quite impressive numbers.
You should mention that Gates of Antares FAILED to preview much more than promises and very very few greens and concept art. No money for fancy ideas without stuff to back it up. Big names do not always work.