Does anyone undercoat with out spraying?
How do I do it?
Yeah I would use paint on primer most of the time. Lately I've mostly been using this one:
https://www.pendraken.co.uk/black-primer-60ml-6544-p.asp
But I do sometimes use grey shade ones too.
Just make sure you use an old brush as it can dry in hard if you don't rinse well enough. I use a fairly big brush, the primer is somewhat thin so you can blob it on fairly heavily and by the time it's dried it's formed a nice thin coat.
Unless I've misunderstood the question...
I can't remember using a spray primer since 2014 when I bought my first brush-on primer.
http://www.michaelscott.name/1809/blog2015/1809blogpost172.htm (http://www.michaelscott.name/1809/blog2015/1809blogpost172.htm)
I use a number of browns and greys. Works perfectly. Avoid touching the miniature once primed as the primer can rub off.
In use here:
228 : Contrast Paints – Supreme Littleness Designs Projects (https://projects.supremelittleness.co.uk/228-contrast-paints/)
Quote from: Last Hussar on 08 July 2023, 11:24:46 PMDoes anyone undercoat with out spraying?
How do I do it?
I have never undercoated using spray. Normal style is to use black or white to cover the model first: white for individuals and black for equipment. Using acrylics you might like to thin with some water.
I trialled using GW Black paint straight onto the bare metal this past week, having seen a Little Wars TV video on painting 10mm figures. Whilst not as durable as spray primer, it has worked perfectly well so far and I can't see any problems going forward as I always pick up units by their bases. It also has the huge advantage of not wasting paint (30% or more of the spray is simply wasted) as well as none of the terribly toxic fumes which means spraying outside.
For vehicles I will continue to use spray primer, but might try and 'proper' brush on primer at some point in the future.
Never spray undercoat, it always misses parts, undercuts between legs/wheels, etc. Brush all the way. Only undercoat in enamels too, Humbrol are still great.
I do use spray varnish to finish.
I only use brush on undercoat in extremis. Usually because the weather is so awful that spraying outside is unlikely to be possible any time soon and I have a deadline or occasionally because I've taken the blighters outside to undercoat them only to have the rattle can give a brief blerp of paint followed by a brief hiss of escaping propellant and the rest is silence.
I find I miss just as much, or even more, of the figure with a brush as I do with the can. Spraying is far faster too.
Big brush and white, grey or black paint to choice and Robert is your mother's brother! :)
Is there a particular kind of paint I should try with? I use acrylic, should I use it as is, or water down?
I use Vallejo acrylics neat to begin with then slightly thinned in a vain attempt to get it to flow into all the nooks and crannies.
Spray or brush there always seems to be somewhere I've missed but since it's never on a surface that is likely to get handled I cover bald spots as I paint the figure.
May I ask why you want to undercoat without spraying?
The thought of undercoating by brush puts a cold shiver up my spine.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExcXhqZGRram84bmFudzl2Y2dsMnNoN3N6MjhjbjkxemFkanJnemdnNCZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/KFUx0Rtz7p0HTzbJ7x/giphy.gif)
(See!)
Granted I am a high volume - low quality painter, but never had any problem with coverage or surface from rattle cans. I'd use an air brush, but rattle cans are so much more convenient.
Having only been in the hobby for 50+ years I can honestly say I have never sprayed a primer or an undercoat.
I always brush on the first coat of whatever it is and only use a spray for a final protective coat, gloss or matt varnish.
I've been spray painting the undercoats for my figures since the late 70's, I just wish I'd discovered the idea sooner.
My first use of spray paint was in 1964 when I spray painted my Airfix Julius Caesar figure, all six or so inches of him, with gloss red paint. Then brush painted his face and arms bright gloss pink and the gold detailing a garish gloss yellow.
Some might feel my painting hasn't improved much :D
The reason for not spraying is very mundane.
I am now in a 2nd floor flat, and the only downside (apart from distance to my Regular) is spraying is now difficult.
Oh dear. I am genuinely sorry.
Have you considered a spray booth?
I use brush on primer, the Vallejo ones mentioned above in white.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 09 July 2023, 10:44:42 PMI am now in a 2nd floor flat, and the only downside (apart from distance to my Regular, and lurching back up the stairs after closing time....)
Omission corrected.
FWIW
Having tried various methods over the years, I seem to have settled on Krylon spray (grey) for soft 1/72 plastics because it creates a surface less prone to flaking but brushed on Liquitex Gesso for 10mm metals. This last was a tip from another forumite (Thanks!) as it shrinks into the figure. Black with grey drybrush after helps to create black lines and hide anything you miss but I use white for horses (then wash/ink over for fast results).
I am also impressed with speed/contrast paints for 1/72. Not tried them on 10mm yet. Have finally disciplined myself to paint one project at a time. Not sure how well they would work over black in 10mm because they can pool blackish anyway. But the good news is that I no longer feel the need to brush on that AP "tone" crap quickshade which highlights the detail but makes everything look muddy.
I also live in 2nd floor flat but have the luxury of a balcony for spraying . And a lift for lurching.
Years ago I tried the GW Black but found it too smooth, such that it felt that you were dragging the paint about the surface rather than having settle where the brush had passed.
I have for many years, used Liquitex Black Gesso under GW paints. As mentioned the gesso shrinks on to the figures, so even relatively thick applications dry very tightly with the detail clearly visible. It sometimes shrinks away in places but these can be touched in easily.
It also has "tooth" which means that although it appears to have dried to a very smooth finish, it actually has an invisible roughness which allows it to grip the paint as you apply it.
Gesso is available from suppliers of artists' materials. It comes in black, grey and white and is used to prepare canvases.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 09 July 2023, 10:44:42 PMThe reason for not spraying is very mundane.
I am now in a 2nd floor flat, and the only downside (apart from distance to my Regular) is spraying is now difficult.
Aerosol sprays are hit and miss, literally, as they often don't cover fully. You also can't use them indoors because of the toxic fumes they give-off and that is a real problem for you, living as you do in a flat (every cloud has a silver lining and you don't have a lawn to mow). In general terms, the main problem is that if you spray too far away with an aerosol the paint dries in flight and you can be left with a grainy effect on the surface. I had this happen with over 200 SCW figures and spent a very long time soaking them in various different chemicals from meths to white spirit before using cellulose thinners and a metal brush. Never again. Aerosols are also not very good environmentally speaking. So, this is my solution these days. Thin some ordinary acrylic white paint, Vallejo is fine, about 25% water and apply with a large brush about, a No 8 or larger. Mine is so old I can't see the size but it is about as big as my thumb (still talking about the brush :D) It takes no longer than spraying them and can be done indoors as it produces no fumes. This is the primer onto which the undercoat/top coat will key and it also reveals any imperfection missed during prep. You can then apply an undercoat if you need to, I prefer white as I find black just dulls the top coat, particularly if it is a colour like yellow or red which are pigment-challenged, and I've never seen the point of black anyway. Usually, though, I just apply a under/top coat of the principal colour at this stage, one coat is usually enough, thinned a little so it fills the nooks and crannies and lets the highlights show through. Then I'll give the figures a wash of Vallejo sepia, thinned about 50/50. Then highlight and finally apply a matt varnish, again by brush. Aerosol varnishes have issues all their own and also can't be applied indoors for exactly the same reason as aerosol paints. Lately, though, I've been using an airbrush to prime and this might be your solution to spraying indoors. You can use ordinary Vallejo acrylic Model Colour but you must thin it, about 50/50, as it isn't really intended for airbrushing. About 30psi seems fine. Alternatively use Vallejo Model Air which is intended for airbrushing. Advantages of the airbrush are that it is quick, but mainly, and this is important for you, is that it can be applied indoors as it doesn't produce fumes, it is unaffected by drying in flight issues and you can apply it very accurately. The only downside I can think of is the initial investment. Give an airbrush a go - very good on vehicles.
After messing up my first few 10mm's with too many layers I prime by brush with whatever the main colour is going to be, I then add a single layer of additional colours, wash and re apply the first layer as a highlight then selectively highlight a few areas
I used black gesso for a while, it works well enough but I do find I use the Vallejo primer paint more now, as I find it a little easier to pick out details afterwards, though fairly small difference between them.
I've started to brush on Vallejo Black Surface Primer mixed with Vallejo German Red/Brown Surface primer, so that I get a nice lush dark brown.
Brown is a great medium to work up lighter colours into the mix. And as I use the tried and tested block all colours and wash. It also enhances the dark brown crevices to be a tad more darker, almost black. And gives overall a bit more earthy look.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 09 July 2023, 10:44:42 PMThe reason for not spraying is very mundane.
I am now in a 2nd floor flat, and the only downside (apart from distance to my Regular) is spraying is now difficult.
Can I sugest you look into getting an airbrush and a small compressor. You can then use water based paints without any issues. Overspray is virtually non existant. When I had a flat I spray painted in my Kitchen.
You just put a large sheet of card behind or use three sides of a box to go round them.
A reasonable 2 stage airbrush will allow you to paint the tracks on a 10 mm tank and not get the paint on the wheels or hull.
Quote from: Orcs on 10 July 2023, 09:59:54 PMCan I sugest you look into getting an airbrush and a small compressor. You can then use water based paints without any issues. Overspray is virtually non existant. When I had a flat I spray painted in my Kitchen.
You just put a large sheet of card behind or use three sides of a box to go round them.
A reasonable 2 stage airbrush will allow you to paint the tracks on a 10 mm tank and not get the paint on the wheels or hull.
Any advice on a good cheapish airbrush starter set?
QuoteAny advice on a good cheapish airbrush starter set?
This chap tries the cheapest available on Amazon:
You'll also need a compressor though.
Alternatively, try a portable one with rechargeable compressor:
Thanks Raider, food for thought.
QuoteThanks Raider, food for thought.
No problem. The portable one is suddenly looking very appealing . . .
Quote from: Ben Waterhouse on 11 July 2023, 08:49:36 AMAny advice on a good cheapish airbrush starter set?
My airbrush is a Badger bought several years ago and still working fine. There is, honestly, no such thing as a 'good cheapish' airbrush. You get what you pay for and there are loads out there to chose from. I'd avoid anything under £50 and look at ones around £100 that include a compressor. Some do not come with a compressor and that has to be bought separately. You'll need a cleaning kit too. Look on line, there are tutorials and reviews.
Thanks John
I'd agree with John, I made the mistake of buying a cheap one a few years back and hardly ever use it now as it clogs so easily and gives really poor control, so worth investing in something a little better. It is handy for priming large batches indoors if you can get a decent spray on it. Though it depends on your workflow, good if you tend to do big batches of painting in the same project, but probably faffy if looking to only do a few at a time as have to dissemble and clean each time.
I bought a Badger 360 Airbrush and a Paashe compressor with a 2 litre tank ( makes less noise than a tanless type) for about what the Airbrush would have cost in the uk. They even supplied a 240 volt powersupply with the compressor and I just changed the plug to a British one. Then it was almost $2 to th £1 though
You want a dual action gravity feed brush.
Look at trader below, they are often at wargames shows.
https://barwellbodyworks-shop.com/
You could try one of the Chinese sites like Temu
Quote. . . makes less noise than a tanless type . . .
You clearly bought the 'pale & pasty' version, aimed at nerds who live in their parents basement and never see sunlight.
Quote from: Raider4 on 12 July 2023, 06:54:17 PMYou clearly bought the 'pale & pasty' version, aimed at nerds who live in their parents basement and never see sunlight.
;D ;D
Read my comment again "I bought a Badger 360 Airbrush and a Paashe compressor with a 2 litre tank ( makes less noise than a tanless type) "
so the type I bought was not a Tanless type.
I therefore should be a nice orange colour ;D
I have met Orcs.
Trust me, NO ONE would let him live in their basement.
Even Frank N Furter
Undercoated Pendraken ECW by brush with watered down white acrylic from Works (not the ice cream Works, the other one) today.
This is of note because it means I'm reestablishing my painting mojo. Even painted trousers on 30 of them. Might be 24, but still, something has tilted right.
=D> =D> =D>
My understanding is that an airbrush carries its own perils and that an air filter booth is an important addition. The acrylic spray that doesn't hit a target stays in the air as a super fine dust.
I have my booth out in a utility room, vented through a window and I still wear a mask.
For primer, I prefer brush on Vallejo, which seems to work better on plastic than metal. For metal I used to use Hammerite primer, but is a bit thick and smelly, especially once the tin has been opened and it starts getting a bit older, even that stuff will rub off metals, so needs careful handling (i.e none!) until paint and varnish are on.
Quote from: Norm on 15 July 2023, 09:01:02 PMMy understanding is that an airbrush carries its own perils and that an air filter booth is an important addition. The acrylic spray that doesn't hit a target stays in the air as a super fine dust.
I have my booth out in a utility room, vented through a window and I still wear a mask.
For primer, I prefer brush on Vallejo, which seems to work better on plastic than metal. For metal I used to use Hammerite primer, but is a bit thick and smelly, especially once the tin has been opened and it starts getting a bit older, even that stuff will rub off metals, so needs careful handling (i.e none!) until paint and varnish are on.
In my experience the paint dust is not an issue, as its dry and is just dust of a different colour. Overspray can be an issue, but at 15psi it does not go more than a few inches over the subject, particularly if you are spraying downwards, as you normally are.
I undercoated by brush. It was time intensive, but at the moment nothing I couldn't handle; it's quite quick, j7st needed up with white paint on all my finger tips.
I'm finding the brush on primer (well thinned black paint at present) is working well, as with the never ending rain we have been having, I can carry on where as if I wanted to spray primer on, I wouldn't have been able to do it due to the weather.
To be honest a large soft brush is what I use most of the time to apply primer/undercoat, often one and the same thing in practice on 10mm metal figures. It is not much more labour intensive that using a spray and a lot less hazardous than an aerosol, or even an airbrush. The latter produces no toxic fumes but as mentioned above it does produce particles. It is recommended that you wear a mask when using an airbrush indoors and that is common sense really but I'd wear one when using an aerosol anyway, so not much of a challenge. I've never had any issues using an airbrush indoors and I do suffer from Allergic Rhinitis, though quite what I'm allergic to has never been established.