Get started on the fairly big topic for SCW artillery and vehicles
Nationalists
Panzer I - GRV1
Republicans
FT17 - F38 (37mm) and F39 (MG)
Both
Civilians - FRE15
Citroen Truck - FRE17
Before you do a lot of unnecessary work, these are not really substitutes. They aren't proxies for something else.
No, but they are equipment used in the conflict that aren't in the main lists - so are useful to know they exist elsewhere in the Pendraken catalogue
Wot fred said!
You seem to be saying that if somebody wants a Pz MkI for a SCW project, they need to be told that it exists under WW2 German. Really?
I think he's saying its helpful to tell someone which code it is ;)
Other entries will be less obvious such as the civilians...
Quote from: John Cook on 27 October 2020, 05:41:30 PM
You seem to be saying that if somebody wants a Pz MkI for a SCW project, they need to be told that it exists under WW2 German. Really?
I can think of two among my own gaming group .... well what was my gaming group until Covid came along :(
One of them had reached his early forties without being aware that the Russians had been an Allied power not an Axis one during WW2.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Though I do like to imagine that at least some of it is down to being ill-informed rather than actually stupid.
It might well be useful to point to items that were used in the SCW (or whatever) and are found listed elsewhere, but they really aren't proxies. To call them proxies (substitutes) might only confuse the "ill-informed". It seems to me, that if this idea is to be pursued, there need to be two 'lists'. Proxies, for example using the 1809 Saxon infantry to substitute for 1806 Prussian infantry and items that are not substitutes for anything but are listed elsewhere. Laudable though this idea is, I see it as a jar of the proverbial potentially.
Quote from: paulr on 27 October 2020, 06:34:12 PM
I think he's saying its helpful to tell someone which code it is ;)
Other entries will be less obvious such as the civilians...
Correct and not all the possible choices will be obvious in where to find them, e.g. FT17 could be under WWI or WWII French. Civilians and types suitable for militia can come in other places. I think we maybe need a wider range of things than proxies as it will include models from other ranges and where to find them for a period.
Quote from: DaveH on 28 October 2020, 10:26:08 AM
Correct and not all the possible choices will be obvious in where to find them, e.g. FT17 could be under WWI or WWII French. Civilians and types suitable for militia can come in other places. I think we maybe need a wider range of things than proxies as it will include models from other ranges and where to find them for a period.
I think so. I was wondering if it would not be better to have a 'note' at the top of the SCW page, directing people to other pages for kit that was used in Spain. Mind you, the SCW is, perrhaps, unique in that almost anything from WW1 and early WW2 turned up there. The Soviets used the opportunity to dump a lot of captured German WW1 stuff on the Republic. I've been gaming the SCW for years so I'll start a list and we can compare notes.
This kind of thing crops up in a few lists, I think it often comes down to when a particular model was made by Pendraken, as some of the lists of models are much newer. There is the problem that the sales website only (easily) lets you have a given product in one section.
Therefore there are a few places were being able to cross reference other codes is useful. There is perhaps the distinction to be made between cross referencing and actual proxies?
We maybe need a section for true proxies like the Chinese Warlords ones going on, then a section for compatible figure ranged for particular eras like SCW? Would be useful for AVBCW stuff too. And even with the likes of some medieval eras, there's figures from ancient to renaissance that would fit, they're a little blurred between proxy and compatible, as there's not much difference between an Arab light cavalry man in Xerxes army as in Saladin's despite the 1700 years or so difference.
Maybe we need a "pick 'n' mix" for a list of potential compatible ranges to at least have a starting point for people to look at if they don't find what they need in the "named" range?
Quote from: mmcv on 29 October 2020, 09:15:17 AM
We maybe need a section for true proxies like the Chinese Warlords ones going on, then a section for compatible figure ranged for particular eras like SCW? Would be useful for AVBCW stuff too. And even with the likes of some medieval eras, there's figures from ancient to renaissance that would fit, they're a little blurred between proxy and compatible, as there's not much difference between an Arab light cavalry man in Xerxes army as in Saladin's despite the 1700 years or so difference.
Maybe we need a "pick 'n' mix" for a list of potential compatible ranges to at least have a starting point for people to look at if they don't find what they need in the "named" range?
To avoid proliferating sections maybe we need proxy and compatible figures/models as the section title.
Quote from: DaveH on 29 October 2020, 10:07:47 AM
To avoid proliferating sections maybe we need proxy and compatible figures/models as the section title.
I think so. It's much easier for people to have one place to look. It's hardly likely any of these lists are going to be that long they need breaking out into different sections.
I think we've down a bit of a rabbit hole with what's a proxy and what's just hiding in another range! Let's see how the much use this board gets and how many lists we see, and then we can decide if it needs a finetune.
Quote from: Leon on 29 October 2020, 02:20:56 PM
I think we've down a bit of a rabbit hole with what's a proxy and what's just hiding in another range! Let's see how the much use this board gets and how many lists we see, and then we can decide if it needs a finetune.
Here are some SCW items 'hiding in another range'. The question is, do you need to point this out to people? Frankly, I doubt it.
British WW1BP9 4.5" Howitzer Used by the Republic. Originally supplied to Tsarist Russia during WW1, sold to the Republic by the Soviets.
BP11 60pdr HG Used by the Republic. Originally supplied to Tsarist Russia during WW1, sold to the Republic by the Soviets.
French WW1F18 Char Schneider A few former pre-war Spanish army Schneider tanks were used by the Republic during the early fighting.
F7/7a 155mm Howitzer Not quite sure what this represents. The 155C M1917 Schneider was standard in the pre-war Spanish army. Used by the Republic and the Nationalists. The 152mm howitzer M1910 was essentially the same weapon produced under licence by Imperial Russia and was supplied by the Soviets to the Republic.
F39 FT-17 round turret, MG The FT-17 was the standard tank in the pre-war Spanish army. They seem to have been MG armed and typically the round turret versions. There were 15 available in 1936; the Republic had 9 of them.
F38 FT-17 round turret, 37mm A number of additional FT-17s with 37mm guns in round turrets were acquired by the Republic from Poland.
German WW1GP5/5a 77mm FG Examples of the German 7.7cm FK96 were supplied to the Republic by the Soviets. They had been captured by the Russians during WW1.
GP7/7a 105mm Howitzer Examples of the short-barrelled German 10.5cm FH 89/09 were supplied to the Republic by the Soviets. They had been captured by the Russians during WW1.
GP16 75mm minenwerfer These were supplied to the Republic by the Soviets. They had been captured by the Russians during WW1.
Russia WW1RP4 76.2mm FG The Soviets supplied numbers of Putilov 76.2mm M1902 to the Republic.
German WW2GRA4 37mm AT gun. The 3.7cm Pak36 was supplied to the Nationalists by Nazi Germany.
GRA23 8.8cm FLAK 36 Supplied to the Nationalists by Nazi Germany it was operated mainly by elements of the Condor Legion.
GRV1 Panzer I Ausf A The most numerous Nationalist tank, supplied largely in Ausf A form by Nazi Germany.
GRV2 Panzer I Ausf A command Some Pz Is Ausf A command vehicles were supplied to the Nationalists by Nazi Germany.
GRV3 Panzer I Ausf B The Nazis provided lesser numbers of the Ausf B to the Nationalists.
French WW2FRE54 75mm field gun spoked wheels In addition to standard 75mm mle 1897 field guns acquired from a variety of sources, the Soviets supplied numbers of Mle 1897 field guns to the Republic in 76.2mm.
FRE57 Canon de 105 mle 13 The Republic acquired some of these French guns and were supplied with numbers of the Russian licence built version in 107mm by the Soviets.
Poland WW2
POL17 wz.36 37mm AT gun This is the Swedish Bofors M38. The Republic acquired at least 20 examples.
POL29 wz 1913 Schneider 105mm This is the same as FRE57 above.
Soviet WW2
SVA1 45mm AT gun Up to approximately 200 examples of the 45mm M1932 anti tank gun was supplied by the Soviets to the Republic.
SVA8 76.2 FG spoke wheels Not quite sure what this item is. The Soviets supplied significant numbers of the 76.2mm Divisional Gun M1902 and M1902/30 to the Republic.
SVV28 ZIS-5 truck One of the many types of truck supplied by the Soviets to the Republic.
SVV30 ZIS-6 truck See above.
SVV32 BA-6 armoured car The Soviets supplied at least 20 of these armoured car to the Republic. Captured ones were used by the Nationalists.
Quote from: John Cook on 29 October 2020, 04:29:49 PM
The question is, do you need to point this out to people? Frankly, I doubt it.
Possibly not but it doesn't hurt to give folks some pointers where we can. As someone said earlier we're a bit limited in the website as I can't add a product to more than one category, otherwise I'd have all of these things replicated where they could be used.
Thanks for the list as well, that's a great help.
Quote from: John Cook on 29 October 2020, 04:29:49 PM
Here are some SCW items 'hiding in another range'. The question is, do you need to point this out to people? Frankly, I doubt it.
I think it's definitely worthwhile, especially since the 20th Century range is so large, it can be hard to know what was used where and when, especially if you're new to the period, so thanks for the list!
The SCW was such a mixed bag of troops and vehicles as well, so its especially pertinent. Plus the search on the Pendraken site isn't always the greatest for particular items. E.g. search something like "BA-6" and you'll have to sift through hundreds of items to find it. If you know to search "BA-6 armoured car" you can get it immediately, but you have to know to do that which a prospective buyer may not without knowing what it was. And if you couldn't find the right search terms, you'd have to manually click through a lot of different sections from WW1, Interwar and WW2, which I'm guessing are among the largest collections available.
No problem, I try to be constructive from time to time :D
It is a shame about the limitations of the website because adding products to several different categories, it seems to me, is the solution for this particular issue. I see you have a T-26 tank with different nomenclature and numbers under both the SCW and Soviet pages. Would not a renumbering from the 'parent' page do the trick?
Anyway, my list is probably not exhaustive because the description of some items is not entirely clear. For example what is SVA12 exactly? There were two Soviet 122mm and one 152mm weapons with spoked wheels and without a picture it's a bit of a mystery. One of these might well be a type supplied by the Soviets to the Republic, I just don't know.
Trucks are also an omission for which no proxies exist.
It's a bit frustrating and something I'd like the webguy to fix for me. The previous site was able to do it but this newer one doesn't as yet. I can add them manually to other categories as a separate entry but that causes a bit of a clash in the database having two identical products in there.
I note the T-26 in the SCW list (SCV4) appears to be a T26 model 1939, (SVV1 from the WW2 list).
For the SCW, the 1933 model would be more correct, i.e. SVV38 from the WW2 list. For the 1938 models that were sent to Spain an AA MG could be added.