Great Northern War Russians

[CraigForOz]

Hello,

I've been slowly putting together some GNW armies, as you do.

My understanding is that the pre-reform infantry wore a more eastern style kaftan and sort of looked more like a Streltsi but without the axe.

So - Question - Would GNR2 and GNR4 be suitable figures for pre-reform 'old style' infantry?

If not, any other figure from any other range?


I don't really fancy the idea of de-axing a bunch of streltsi figures.


thanks

[Hertsblue]

When you say "pre-reform" are you talking about pre-1700? After that year Peter 1st's army was pretty well westernised - apart from the Cossacks and Kalmucks and what remained of the streltsi. So GNR 2 and GNR4 would be fine. Before that date the costume (not sure how "uniform" it was) was much more eastern and traditional. Peter continued to reform and upgrade his army over the next few years. In 1712 the infantry and cavalry were re-flagged and in 1725 the infantry adopted green as the basic uniform colour.

[Hwiccee]

Craig: I have de-axed some Streltsi for my GNW army without too much trouble. There are 2 poses - a standing firing with the musket resting on the axe and a marching pose with the axe held by the side of the body with the axe mainly sticking out from the body. With both of these it is fairly easy to trim away the axe.  The standing firing ones are very simple to do but the marching are a little more difficult but basically it was easy. I used nail clippers 'borrowed' from my wife and occasionally had to cut bits/file bits when I messed up a little, usually the marching figures.

With GNR2 & 4 you should really 'fill in' the gaps of the open coats to make kaftans but it depends how much effort you want to take. I did mine as later war Streltsi but you will probably want to use the GNR4 pikes as the regulars had pikes, Streltsi probably didn't.

The other option might be Polish Hajduk type musketeers. I haven't seen them so I am not sure if they would be good.

Hertsblue: The Russians wore streltsi type uniforms until at least 1703. in 1703 the guards got the first 'Western' style uniforms and the other regiments followed after this - this probably took a year or two. The units were uniformed.

Streltsi continued to feature in Russian armies until after the war but usually not in great numbers and in secondary theatres/wars.

[FierceKitty]

I thought Peter did a Stalin-like purge of the corps?

[Hwiccee]

He certainly did a 'Stalin' on some - basically the Moscow based units that revolted. But only some of the small number of units that revolted were killed, the rest just got punished & returned to duty. While the vast bulk of the units which weren't in the revolt carried on as usual.

The Streltsi had in fact been on the way out for some time, i.e. before Peter, as the army shifted to regular, western style units but in Russian costumes. Regular regiments had been the majority of Russian infantry for 20 or maybe 30 years before Peter's time. He carried on getting rid of them, usually by converting them to regular regiments or militia/garrison type units. Roughly 25% of the army in 1700 were Streltsi but by the time of Poltava there was only 1 at that battle. They continued to be active on the Turkish front and other similar places for the rest of Peter's time and as a kind of militia force well into the 18th century.

[Techno]

As that post was your first, Craig.....
A very warm welcome to the forum !
Cheers - Phil

[fsn]

I don't really fancy the idea of de-axing a bunch of streltsi figures.

We've all done it. It's like a rite of passage. FierceKitty stayed up for three days de-axing his.

Welcome to the forum Mr ForOz. May I say I love your contribution to the Mupper Show? 

[FierceKitty]

I did not! I use them for battles fro the Time of Troubles (faith, and doesn't that sound loike something from de ould country and all?), when Streltsi still carried axes and were proud to be ground under the Tsar's heel.

[CraigForOz]

Thanks for the welcomes. I have actually been on and off the forums for years, just never really had an questions to ask.

I got a few packs of Sweds on a bit of a whim over a year ago and eventually painted them. Then I eventually picked up some more to flesh out the very small force I had. Now, despite the less then subtle hints to my gaming circle I have concluded that if I am going to convince them that this period is the new black, I am going to have to provide both armies.

Currently I have on order some Polish types from the Ren range. My understanding is the Polish-Lithuanians were pretty much the same in 1700 as they had been the previous hundred years so I think the figures should be fine for my Polish Crown Army force.

One day I do hope to actually get some Narva period Russian on the table as well.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi

Here's a pic of them from jchao on another forum:-



Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[CraigForOz]

They are GRN7 - Streltsi, musket/axe ??

[Hertsblue]

Angus Konstam's Osprey volume illustrates a strelsi of the 1696 1st Moscow regiment armed with a berdische axe. He also illustrates both guard regiments in "western" uniforms at Narva in 1700. Pat Condray in his Swedish and Russian Armies of the Great Northern War mentions that the 1700 issue coat was "essentially similar to those worn throughout European armies". Most of his information comes from Zweiguitzow. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

[FierceKitty]

Angus Konstam's Osprey volume illustrates a strelsi of the 1696 1st Moscow regiment armed with a berdische axe. He also illustrates both guard regiments in "western" uniforms at Narva in 1700. Pat Condray in his Swedish and Russian Armies of the Great Northern War mentions that the 1700 issue coat was "essentially similar to those worn throughout European armies". Most of his information comes from Zweiguitzow. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

Streltsi is the plural. One strelets. Report to the Grammarmaster-general for a knouting.

[Hwiccee]

I am afraid I am not a big fan of Osprey's. I wouldn't waste your money on Osprey's, get some real books instead. Condray's stuff is a lot better and worth getting.

In this case they are not at fault here, or at least not totally, and it is an interesting tale which should be a warning to us all.

What happened is that in the mid 18th century some Russian colonel researched the uniform change over in original source material and then wrote a book about it. This guy found that the army had changed to Western uniforms BY 1703 so he seems to have reasoned that the change over started earlier and the army fought at Narva in western gear.

For 250 years no one else bothered to look at the source material, they just copied the colonel's work or the work of some one else who had copied him - this is what Konstam, Condray and Zweiguitzow did.

Then around 2000, i.e. the 300th anniversary of the war starting, some one finally got round to looking at the original source material. They found that the source actually said the army had changed to Western uniform FROM 1703 and the original guy had misread it or misunderstood or something.

So anything from before 2000ish is wrong on uniforms for this reason.  Some of the uniform details in Konstam, Condray and Zweiguitzow are wrong or only partly right - i.e. they show the uniform at 17?? but not for the rest of the time. I don't think there are many of these and generally the info you will have is OK, at least for some time in the war. But I had to repaint at least 1 regiment (the Ingermanlandski I think) and it seems the grenadier uniforms are largely unknown (I left them as is, as the actual uniform is not known).

Unfortunately this is not the only thing that has changed with the Russians. A lot of the other details about the Russians concerning this war have also changed - the anniversary of the war has led to a lot of looking at the original sources. I am talking here about OOB's, details of battles/campaigns, etc, and also the whole idea that Peter the Great got rid of the Streltsi. There is also some similar other stuff on other armies of this period which really needs to be looked at again.

As far as I know the only English source for the new Russian uniform info is the Acedia book on the army. This is expensive but probably the best around.

Berdische Axes: I think no one really knows what the Streltsi were armed with in the GNW (not sure about 1690's). Could be they still had axes but they didn't always have them in earlier times and there is no real information either way.

[FierceKitty]

What an admirable illustration of the difference messy language can cause. Careless talk costs centuries of misinformation.