Subscription to create new ranges!

[Wkeyser]

Hi All

How about a subscription system for new figures or better yet entire ranges! A number of the Board game companies use this to get the upfront cost for printing before they go to the printer.

There are couple of ways to do this, I would think the first is a wish list. This you already have but it really is not that useful for you the manufacture, you might get someone hot on something and unless there is follow up it really does not mean anything in the vast majority of cases.

I would propose to create a list of figures, for an entire range say French Rev, as I have spoken to Dave before about. Next you have a prepay option with paypal or a commitment by the buyer with a credit card number for x number of figures.

Now Dave knows how much he needs to start a range this can vary from the entire cost of the sculpting and mold making or just a portion of that cost, this could vary based on the size and possible popularity of the range.

So in my example we could have an extensive range of Rev war French, with 1797 Austrians, Peidmontese for the Italian campaign. This would contain all the figs needed for the Italian and German Campaigns of 1796-97. The Peidmontese are essentially in the same uniform as the Prussians. 

Offer a discount for say 200, 300 and 500 pounds preorders. Have a deadline for completion of say one year. The discount would be for the range so all the figures would get produced. So those that have prepaid you get the figs shipped as they are produced.

The reason that a French Rev range would be ideal is that it is a period that no one really has a complete range (Eureka is working on a 28mm range but is along way from complete). This means that the vast majority of Napoleonic players that already have hundreds of 15mm can get into a new period within the Napoleonic age in a new scale so now they are not duplicating there figures (this is I believe going to be a hindrance to the 1809 range unless it is being done on commission). Then you can add to it with Russians and British for 1799 in both Italy and Holland. Then add Prussians and you have a pretty complete early war range. This can all be done by subscription. With the power of the internet an add blitz would easily create a good sized number of preorders!

I am more than willing to  put in 300 for French, Austrian and Peidmontese as long as the quality is as the new AWI and 1870 ranges!!!!!

William Keyser

Below is a list of Austrians that I and Christopher Tenwolde put together when we attempted to get a French Rev range off the ground in 10mm a few years ago. We also have lists for the French in the Ragged look and Peidmontese, along with cavalry and other goodies. A pretty complete list of what nut case like us want in a range!

Austrian Infantry                  Figure Variants (58)

AI10   German Fusiliers in Casquet         3 march attack
AI11   German Command in Casquet         3 officers (in bicornes), 1 flag, 1 drummer
AI12   German Skirmishers in Casquet         2 firing, 2 loading

AI20   Hungarian Fusiliers / Grenz in Casquet   3 march attack
AI21   Hungarian Command in Casquet      3 officers (in bicornes), 1 flag, 1 drummer
AI22   Hungarian Skirmishers in Casquet      2 firing, 2 loading

AI30   German Grenadiers in Bearskin         3 march attack
AI31   German Command in Bearskin         2 officers, 1 flag, 1 drummer
AI32   German Grenadiers skirmishing         2 firing 2 loading

AI40   Hungarian Grenadiers in Bearskin      3 march attack
AI41   Hungarian Command in Bearskin      2 officers, 1 flag, 1 drummer

AI50   Jaegers in Corsehut            3 march attack
AI51   Jaeger Command in Corsehut         2 officers, 1 drummer
AI52   Jaeger Skirmishers in Corsehut         2 firing, 2 loading

AI60   Grenz in Klobuk               3 march attack
AI61   Grenz Command in Klobuk         2 officers, 1 drummer
AI62   Grenz Skirmishers in Klobuk         2 firing, 2 loading

Foot command pack consisting of various commanders Brigade and higher, at least 10 different officers.. Diorama ideas.
Also make marker figs so a couple running away, some wounded, some helping wounded some dead.

3 march attack
3 march attack Hungarian
4 firing
4 firing Hungarian
3 march attack grenadiers
3 march attack grenadiers Hungarian
4 officers poses
2 drummers
4 flag bears

Heads
Casquet
Bearskin
Corsehut
Klobuk

[Chad]

Sounds good. Eureka use a similar system I believe. Sufficient interest/orders = production.

Chad

[Leon]

It's a nice idea, and one that seems to work quite well for Eureka.  The biggest problem for us is that firstly we don't have enough designers, and secondly we wouldn't want to take people's money in advance, in case something happened which delayed the range.

The requests lists which we are keeping are helping us to see what people are interested in seeing, and we are starting to structure our design schedules around this.  Our main full-time designer is working on several projects at the moment, including the SCW, WW2 Pacific, and Napoleonics, and will be busy with those for the next 6 months or so.  Other designers have a lot of work on for other people, so we have to share their time, which in turn slows down the production.  Ideally, we need more designers, but finding people with the necessary ability, and at a reasonable price, is very difficult.

The Eureka offer is essentially risk-free business.  They have all the money/orders in advance to produce the range.  But what happens if a person decides they don't want any of the new figures after all?  Or the new figures aren't the right look for some people?  You will end up with some unhappy customers.  I wouild imagine that a lot of people would also say, "I'll promise to buy some, as long as you get Figure X designed".

We prefer to produce the figures, let people see them and then if they like them, they will buy them.  We wouldn't want to disappoint people by having a project that overran the deadlines, or wasn't quite what people were wanting.

With Revolutionary French, we do have a designer who is interested in producing this range, but it will depend on when he has the time free.

[Wkeyser]

Hi Leon
I can see that having a designer tied up on a big project would be a problem. However, I still think that if you offer this service that there are a lot of people that do business with you that would trust you do get the project done and would be willing to pay upfront for the figures, I know I would and know of various other gamers who would be willing to take on the risk.

I think the idea that Eureka uses is good but if you have paid for the figures up front then the customers are unlikely to change their minds.

The main benefit I can see for you the manufacture is that a range is completed so you would, I believe, get more sales earlier. Not many people buy into a range until it is complete, particularly a new period or a range that no one else makes figures for. I know that is what I do.

The way I was looking at this was to create a range for a period that is growing in popularity with much less risk for you the producer.

Since you do have a designer interested in producing the range than an influx of money to kick start the range and allow the designer to get going with the range. I also have pdfs for all the uniforms and showing various poses that would be great.

William

[Chad]

Leon I can see your concern, but agree with William. Another option may be to take a non-refundable deposit, say 25% of the forward order, with the balance payable on delivery. This would secure a commitment, provide up front funding and give cover in the event that the purchaser eventually decided to cancel. I would have no problem with this. It would be interesting to see how many other members of the forum would be interested in this.

Chad

[CATenWolde]

Hi guys,

Well, obviously I'm a fan of the idea (for almost ten years now?), and I do think that the situation has improved on several levels since the last attempts were made. The key here is balancing the exposure of the producer with the expectations of the purchasers. Eureka's model succeeds in a large part because they have a stable, well developed sculpting style and a proven track record of producing niche products. The positive side there is that the gamers have a firm belief in the quality of the figures to be produced, but the downside is that the model has never really been applied to producing a whole range - just single specialty figures or small groups of a dozen or so.

Pendraken uses a variety of sculptors, but many of them are known by their ranges. So ... if, for instance, we were able to talk Clib into resurrecting his interest in early Napoleonics, people would have a great confidence in the eventual quality of the figures, and in his dedication to finish the line (even if it does take a while ...). That takes care of purchaser confidence, and I think the sculptor's position has also been helped by the appearance of the Eureka line, which would provide a great template to "shrink down" into 10mm scale, much as Clib did with the Foundry LR lines and his first 10mm figures. There's also no doubt that the appearance of the Eureka line has raised interest in the period overall, and proven it can succeed - I doubt Eureka would be sinking so much time and money into a line that was losing them money!

What remains, then, is finding a way to make the project sustainable for long-term development, since we are talking about a range here, rather than just a few one-offs. In a situation where Pendraken is already trying to produce and maintain several other lines, and where the sculptors are being tempted by other work, I think the financial commitment has to be solid - i.e. Pendraken has to be able to approach the sculptor and be confident that it can support some long-term work. I know Pendraken has said that they wouldn't want to take money up-front, but I do think that some combination of "sponsorship" by a small number of individuals who understand the situation, supported by pre- or pledge orders by others could work.

In large terms, we are probably talking about two-dozen packs per nationality, perhaps eventually three-dozen. The question then becomes one of Pendraken figuring out how much it needs up-front and in terms of commitments to "book" that time from the sculptor. If the sculptor is someone who isn't working full-time for Pendraken anyway (like Clib), then it's a win-win situation all around, as no time is taken away from other lines.

Of course, another way to look into this would be the possibility of building on the upcoming "1809" range of French/Austrians and simply extending those ranges backwards in time to the earlier periods, as a second step to the initial Napoleonic releases. I'm not sure what long-term plans Pendraken has for that range or the sculptor in question (same fellow who is working on the new WWII Japanese?), but it would be a simple and viable way to cut down on the effort involved and increase the interest in the line.

Cheers,

Christopher

[CATenWolde]

PS -

On a personal note, but one which I think might be echoed by many others, the announcement of Pendraken's upcoming Napoleonic range came at a time when I had almost given up on 10mm Napoleonics. To be frank, I was looking ahead to the Autumn, when my current ACW project will be more-or-less wrapped up, and was going to decide between the new 28mm Eureka French Rev line and 6mm Adler. Without going into detail (which we all know too well), I had simply grown too frustrated by the incomplete state, poor quality, or high prices of most of the current lines. Obviously, the Pendraken announcement has made me re-think all of this, and I'm eagerly awaiting both the initial (hopefully fairly complete) release and any news of further commitments to expand the range beyond that. The thing about Napoleonics is that it's a long-term period, that you are literally committing years and usually thousands of figures to. It's been great seeing Pendraken becoming more active and making a real effort to act on fan interest, so let's hope that the interaction will continue to the benefit of both.

C

[Leon]

Thanks for all the input, I'll have a chat with Dave about the things mentioned.  Again though, the main problem is still the lack of time/designers.  Our main designer is doing the 1809 stuff, which is going to be a pretty hefty range that is going to take us through to early 2011 (Incidentally, he's starting with the French and Austrians). 

The designer who was interested in doing the Rev. stuff has a couple of things already in progress for us, one fairly large, and a couple of bits to finish off other ranges.  But his time is limited as he does a lot of work for other people.  He asked us a while back to reserve this range for him, so we're not going to go back on that agreement.

Like I say, I'll talk with Dave about this, but I think if we decided to try this method, we'd want to do it on a much smaller scale first, to iron out any potential problems.

[CATenWolde]

Fair enough - I don't think anyone has a problem with Clib having "dibs" on the French Rev line. Even just a general "we're going to hold his feet to the fire to finish the current ranges in 2011 and then it's next up" would be welcome news.

Cheers,

Christopher

PS - am I allowed to tempt him with the GNW while he finished the LoA though? 

[Repiqueone]

I would be very supportive of an improvement and expansion of the The French Revolution line of figures.  Horse and artillery should be included in the plans.

[Leon]

Fair enough - I don't think anyone has a problem with Clib having "dibs" on the French Rev line. Even just a general "we're going to hold his feet to the fire to finish the current ranges in 2011 and then it's next up" would be welcome news.

PS - am I allowed to tempt him with the GNW while he finished the LoA though? 

No tempting!   

I'll have a chat with Clib when I get chance and see what he's got planned for other people and where this would fit in.

[grunt101st]

New 10mm Napoleonics would be most welcome.

[Fred]

Yeah, I would go for the Napoleonic revolutionary range! Sounds great!

[Blaker]

I can not wait til the Rev range is finally expaned. However, the current minis available can work if we had some cavalry and artillery + crews for the range. Maybe getting those done first then start on the big list would help jump start the excitement of the range getting new minis.

Also, the 1809 range just cant get here fast enough 

I know that Pendraken's ever expanding ranges is awesome and congrats to Dave and the "boys" for the continued growth!

Oh and Happy 100th Subscriber!

Keep 'em coming!

[Wkeyser]

Ok lots of people have read this thread! There has to be more people that would like to comment either with or against this proposal!


William