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[Wkeyser]

Hi Von Winterfeldt
I think that the Saxons, Prussians and Peidmontese in 10mm are all essentially the same for the early period. The backpack on the hip the bicorn and longer coat all all just about the same. That is why the Peidmontese in the proposed range are there, they cover the Italians and then can be expanded to cover the Prussians and Saxons of the early period, with a quick head swap they can be made into the 1794 Prussians for Valmy with that silly small bicorn/hat.

William

[Wkeyser]

Hi Leon
Any comments from the "management"?  I would really like to know what you guys see as the future for this project and most importantly an estimate of a time line if there is a decision to go ahead with this.

I know that I like most other gamers out there, are really quite fickle and will switch periods in a heart beat and don’t have much patience for waiting for our toys!!!! So it would be nice keep the momentum up if there is a chance of you guys going forward with this in the near future.

Thanks

William

[Leon]

We're currently having a chat about a few things, but we really don't have the spare design funds available for a project this size at this time, and we're not keen on the idea of taking anyone's money up front.  The way I would see things going, would be to start with the 1809 stuff which is currently being sculpted, then once the bulk of that is complete, we can start to work out from there, taking in things like the Revolutionary period, the War of 1812, Indian Mutiny, etc, etc.

I don't mean to disappoint anyone, and the range will be done at some point, but it's best to be straight with people from the start, so that everyone knows where we are.

[Wkeyser]

Boy that is disappointing!  Here I thought we had a way of dealing with lack of funds so that you could ignore or at least minimize that aspect. I still don’t see why you are not willing to do what lots of others companies are doing and obviously there are a lot of people out there willing to pay upfront for range based on the French Revolution. Still can not get my head around your unwillingness to take peoples money even when they say take it. Oh well I guess 2020 we might have a range.
William

[nikharwood]

obviously there are a lot of people out there willing to pay upfront for range based on the French Revolution

Hmm - not sure that 9 expressions of interest here count as "a lot of people" - have a quick look at the other requests & the numbers supporting some of those...

I think Leon's point about lack of designers & time are important: Pendraken cover an enormous range & scope: to tie up sculpting time into one (fairly niche I would suggest) range doesn't make commercial sense IMHO: in doing so it prohibits a wider cast of the net across ranges which will appeal to more customers, thereby generating more income. The releases over the last few months have been pretty broad - it would be insane for a company to 'pull' this scope & focus its time (limited as it as given that this is not a full-time enterprise for the company) onto a single range.

They've also been very clear on their reasons for not wanting to take money up-front / have designs commissioned: if this was my company, I'd employ the same model for exactly the same reasons. I'd also note that, while the customer may always think they're right, the company & its business would be mine: I take responsibility for making decisions that make strategic sense to me and that enable me to retain control over the direction of my business. It also avoids disappointment - was it Wargames Factory (I think?) who opened the floodgates to that complete "you name it & we'll make it in plastic" debacle where they had loads of suggestions & almost nothing was made and the quality was disappointing in the end I think to a lot of people. Not a good way to build a customer-base.

I hope this makes sense - just my thoughts on understanding a business decision.

[clibinarium]

I wouldn't declare the idea yet; discussions are ongoing, plus the discussion in this thread is interesting.

[Megamatman]

As Clib and Leon have said discussions are ongoing.

Before posting in the New Releases/Requests board I'd encourage everybody to read this post first http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=133.0.

[Leon]

Boy that is disappointing!  Here I thought we had a way of dealing with lack of funds so that you could ignore or at least minimize that aspect. I still don’t see why you are not willing to do what lots of others companies are doing and obviously there are a lot of people out there willing to pay upfront for range based on the French Revolution. Still can not get my head around your unwillingness to take peoples money even when they say take it. Oh well I guess 2020 we might have a range.
William

It's not just the money issue, as I've already said.  You're looking at a range needing about 400 different figures or poses, which is a lot of time needed from a designer, aside from the fact that that would be our entire annual design budget gone, plus some.  We're are still talking with Clib about stuff, but I'm not going to say to everyone 'Yeah, we'll have it done by X' because that wouldn't be realistic.

Another thing to consider, as Nik pointed out, is that putting everything into the FR would mean we couldn't afford to have anything else designed for over a year, putting other designers out of work, and disappointing a huge amount of other customers.

With the coming July releases, we'll have had nearly 200 new items this year.  I haven't seen another company come close to that.  We're taking people's feedback on board and getting things designed around them, but we really only have the time/budget for one big project at a time, and we've already got a couple going. 

If this project goes ahead, then it has to be in the best interests of everyone, and we can continue to keep chatting about it.

[von Winterfeldt]

I think nobody demanded that 400 masters should be produced within one year - quite a superhuman effort.

In my view - a comprehensive high quality French Revolutionary range would sell quite well.

[Leon]

I think nobody demanded that 400 masters should be produced within one year - quite a superhuman effort.

In my view - a comprehensive high quality French Revolutionary range would sell quite well.

Oh no, I agree, it couldn't be produced in a year, my point was that it would require the majority of our design budget to produce a range of that size.  And in your words, it would sell 'quite well', unfortunately I don't think 'very well'.

Talks are ongoing though, so we'll see what happens.

[CATenWolde]

Glad to hear that talks are continuing! I think we all appreciate and understand the complexities of managing such a large collection of different lines.

As I mentioned above, looking at the project as an expansion of the French into the Glory Years, and then providing diverse opponents for them over time, is probably the most realistic way of fitting it into the overall scheme. Also, (according to my lists) the number of packs can easily be cut down to: French, 11 infantry, 4 cavalry; Austrian, 11 infantry, 5 cavalry, Piedmontese, 2 infantry. Both the French and Austrians would need another pair of artillerist packs, and the various artillery pieces (or none, depending on how well the 1809 line filled out the equipment), and some Generals, but that amounts to about max 40 packs total to establish the core, and many of those would be minor variants. The "Glory Years" French would undoubtedly be the biggest sellers, but providing the other unique opponents would help establish the Pendraken line as "one stop shopping" for the period.

Out of curiosity, let's imagine that the line sells at least as well as the League of Augsburg line (another interesting period on the periphery of better-known conflicts), and probably better than the French & Indian War line (20 packs). Would it sell as well as the AWI line, with its enormous pack count? I don't really have a good feeling for the popularity of the AWI, but the French Rev line might be considered a similar opportunity to establish Pendraken in a colorful niche period that could grow in popularity with the right figures available. How many people gamed (or even heard of!) the Carlist Wars before the Perry figures came out? At any rate, comparisons to those H&M lines might be the way to benchmark the situation.

Good luck with figuring it out ... and we are also looking forward to news of the Empire period Napoleonics range!

Cheers,

Christopher

[clibinarium]

Well, the AWI and LoA lines aren't that useful as comparators as they are being done primarily because I'm interested in the periods and I volunteered to do them; sculptor's interest counts for 1000 bonus points!

Christopher mentions the overlap between the revolution and the glory years. Bearing in mind I'm a neophyte to naps can you explain how much overlap there is; part of the behind the scenes discussion is the need for compatability between the two ranges, as two different sculptors would be at work.

[CATenWolde]

Hi Clib,

I didn't know that about the AWI and LoA lines, but in any case maybe their rate of sales could help provide a benchmark for eventual rate of returns?

In terms of overlap (thinking off the top of my head), artillery equipment will be pretty universal, and also handily immune from differences in sculpting style. 1809 is really a watershed campaign - both the French and all of their enemies have adopted different uniforms than they had previously, although there are exceptions.

For the French, they used the entire spectrum of their gun types in 1809, so everything from the 4/6/8/12lb cannon and the howitzer types  were in use and wouldn't have to be duplicated. At this scale limbers and caissons would also cross over. Early horse artillery were in the "mirliton" type shako and later horse artillery were in a true shako, but they might also be an acceptable overlap. Hussars would probably be another overlap, with differences so minor they would be acceptable in this scale. Dragoons had the same helmet in both periods, the main difference being much longer coat tails in the earlier uniform, but they might also be able to overlap. The Guard and Grenadier infantry types with their bearskins and longer tails are pretty universal to both periods. Generals would also cross over pretty well.

For the Austrians, there is actually a lot of overlap. Like the French, all of their gun types and equipment will cross over. Also, the "helmet" style infantry (in use along side the "shako" style infantry in 1809) actually goes back to 1800, as do the artillerists in bicorne, and the cavalry in helmet too. The Hussars are pretty universal, as are the uhlans, and Jaegers in Corsehut and Grenzers in kobluk. It's only when you go pre-1800 that the old-stule Austrian uniforms become necessary (although they were still in use in 1800) - but unfortunately it effects pretty much all regular infantry and cavalry and artillerists.

So, looking backwards so to speak, adding the "Glory Years" French would actually extend the playability of the 1809 Austrian range all the way back to the 1800 and 1805 campaigns, which is a pretty significant addition. Then, adding the earlier Austrian uniform covers everything earlier.

The Minor States also had uniform changes for the 1809 campaign, although the Bavarian "Rumford" style uniform is probably close enough to be universal, as are the Poles. Many minor states wore Prussian or Austrian style uniforms (like the Piedmontese), so working on them actually starts to fill out the Prussians. For instance, the Piedmontese essentially used Austrian uniforms for all other arms except line infantry, which could be covered by a couple of packs of infantry/command in Prussian style.

If you have a working list for the 1809 project I would be happy to sketch out a series of overlap lists, and perhaps break down the project into more manageable chunks. With the 1809 line already going, I think it might be pretty manageable.

Cheers,

Christopher

[Leon]

The AWI range is one of our most popular lines, really only behind the WW2, Fantasy and maybe SYW, although the SYW is selling very well at the moment.  I'd expect the LofA to be a good seller as well judging by the interest we've had in it, but probably not up to AWI levels.

If you have a working list for the 1809 project I would be happy to sketch out a series of overlap lists, and perhaps break down the project into more manageable chunks. With the 1809 line already going, I think it might be pretty manageable.

I'll send you a PM.

[CATenWolde]

That's actually great to hear about the AWI, and probably a good example of what a talented sculptor can do for an otherwise niche period that has been underdeveloped. The Pendraken AWI line has become one of the standard "go to" references on TMP and elsewhere that I have seen (much like the SYW line). I imagine there are a lot of people like me out there, who wouldn't have really thought of doing the period but are (or will be) pulled in because the line is too tempting.

I know that you have a dominant position in WWII, but the Fantasy surprises me! Are there that many Warmaster players still out there?

At any rate, considering how popular Napoleonics are, let's hope that the 1809 and "standard" Napoleonics do very well for you, even if a bit less than WWII. If the early period Napoleonics can achieve a status like the AWI, or even are just considered like the Minor States in WWII (i.e. part of the big picture that keeps people coming back), that might help gauge effort versus return.

Cheers,

Christopher