Subscription to create new ranges!

[von Winterfeldt]

I would also support a high quality range for the French Revolution, not only French - Austrian and Piemontese - but in the end also Prussia, Russia, Britain and the Armée d'Orient.

W Keyser's list will be a good starting point. In case Clibenarium is sculpting the range the quality should be good.

In the end however we would need at least an agreement when the range should take off - earlier or later than 2011?

Ca ira - hopefully

[andysmodels]

Hi Guys
New on the Forum.
The new Napoleonics. I went to Dave about 18 Months ago and asked if he was going to finish his Naps as they were missing a lot from them. I said to him that I was looking to do Wagram and needed lots of figures to do the complete Armies for both sides (I think it is 17 Army Corps for both sides) and he asked me for a list of what figures I wanted and how many. I think the first quote to Dave was 20.000 figures but I now think that is on the low side. I gave Dave my list last year and the Designer is slowly working thro the list. I'm looking forward to see some of the Figures as I have asked for French, Austrian and all the Rhine troops at Wagram including 1806-9 Saxons and Sappers. I would also like to see some 1797-1800 Rev figures done as well for me to a very small Army later. 

[CATenWolde]

Well, nothing like aiming big!   

And here I was thinking my 4-5k of Zulus was impressive ...

But that's what great about the smaller scales and Napoleonics - you can reasonably base your units at around 1:10 ratios (or so), fit in multiple ranks, and have a beautiful sense of mass. It's also good to see Dave responding to demand, and I'm sure we can put together similar enough interest in the early period to justify its addition. You might "only" have 1/3 or 1/4 of the total number of troops in most battles compared to the later monsters, but that's still several thousand figures per side.

Cheers,

Christopher

[CATenWolde]

PS - hmm ... isn't there some reasonable speculation that Marmont's Army of Dalmatia may still have been organized and uniformed in the old style, due to its remote posting? I would hate to see your list miss a viable option if there were really troops in bicorne on the field ... (insert cherubic smile and innocent whistling)

[clibinarium]

I suppose its time for me to come in on this thread. I'm the designer Leon alluded to. In fact I have already done some Austrians as test figures a while ago. Actually a big thank you is due to Von Winterfelt for all the detailed information he's helped me with.

This is a project that I've discussed with a number of people in this thread on and off over the last few years, Christopher probably most of all. Its something I do have a growing interest in, but as Leon points out my design time has been limited recently, mainly because I've been working hard on the 28mm projects that pay the bills (or more accurately the numerous problems that arise in those projects that derail the paying of bills).
Realistically the project would never get off the ground if treated like the AWI or LoA ranges which are basically limited to my free time, i.e. I have to work in my freetime to do them! That's why they've been a bit slow.
To be frank, for anthing to be done on a realistic timescale, the work would have to be able to compete with my 28mm work in terms of costs, and thats not cheap. Up to now my 10mm work has been on a semi hobby basis (which is why it has been sporadic) Whether this is viable I don't know, since its not been tried.

Sponsorship has been mooted a few times, but its not a straightforward thing. As mentioned Pendraken are slightly wary of it as a concept as it presents a risk for both the sponsors and the company. Everyone has a potentially different view of what the line should consist of, and if people are paying for sponsorship they may have robust views on what it should contain. Another issue is scope; what could be limited to the Italian campaign could also be streched out to Egypt; thats an awful lot of figures, and too ambitious for the genisis of a project. Giving such a big commitment would be foolhardy at this point.

I hope that doesn't sound too negative, I think that its best to talk about the potential pitfalls openly and early on.

[Wkeyser]

Hi Gareth
Well the problem with comparing the 28mm costs and 10mm is that in many ways it is apples and oranges. You get more per figure for sculpting a 28mm fig and the manufacture gets more profit per 28mm than 10mm but in the long run it is not quite that simple. As others have said 10mm is a mass scale, gamers buy lots of figures and the end profit might not be the same but I believe that it is close. I think if you look at gamers purchasing trends it is more about the number of figures that can fit on the table, which often determines the total number of figs purchased for any specific period. So sculpting a limited range of 28mm figs for a public that will not buy that many is not the same as a 10mm figs which are more akin to a commodity and people buy en-mass. Of course this applies mostly to the manufacturer costs and profits. Also without question this depends on the actual range!

So for you as a sculptor you make more money per hour sculpting 28mm than 10mm so the issue is perhaps for the manufacture to look at the problem differently. Look at is an overall project with lots of figures that must be done in order to complete a range or at least to get it to the point where it becomes a viable purchase for gamers. As I have said before the vast majority of gamers are not going to buy into a line of figures unless they are complete. Take a look at GHQs Nappy range I would have bought hundreds if they had made it complete even just for the 1815 campaign as it is I have not bought one pack. But I have forked out hundreds of pounds for Dave’s SYW range which is very complete, and I am still planning more purchases. It would be interesting to know how the sales of the various ranges Dave has, changes as it becomes more complete!

The real issue is how much is the manufacturer willing to commit to a range that if it was something like the Italian campaign would have a very open field, not many competitors in any scale. As to the number of figs yes you have to do a large amount for the Italian campaign but the range has to be complete to get the most profit out of it.

So in the end my suggestion about subscription is about sharing the dangers with the manufacturer, in my case and in a number of others that I know we would be willing to pay upfront hundreds of pounds inorder to get a complete range done. I trust Dave and I feel his long standing in the gaming industry makes him a safe bet at least for me.

So Gareth if you are saying that there is not enough money for you to switch from 28mm to 10mm then perhaps Dave should look around for other talent. I fully understand that there is more profit in sculpting 28mm figs. I understand your desire to make money and the fact that the 10mm is a “hobby” for you becomes an issue in committing to the range. The real question is would you like a long term commitment to work on something like the Italian Campaign. Which would could be a year long project.  Which could then expand to other periods within the era, including early Russian, British, and Prussians? So setting aside a certain amount of time each week for a year is for a freelancer a good prospect!

The benefit to Dave of a dozen or so gamers willing to pay upfront and another dozen or so to pledge support (though sending credit card numbers which would be charged only as figs became available) seems to be a no brainer. Dave does not have to take a great risk or tie up capital in an expanding range, but gets the benefit of being able to create a complete range in a short amount of time with already committed customers.

In my mind a win win situation for Dave.

William

[CATenWolde]

Greetings from (sunny at last!) Helsinki,

It's good to hear from Clib, and I agree that we have to deal with this as a practical problem - how do we gather enough resources (both at the start and in terms of future interest to sustain development) to make this a worthwhile expenditure of time for everyone? And "everyone" should include everyone along the line - the sculptor has to justify it in terms of a job, Pendraken in terms of developing the business, and the gamers have to justify their hobby budgets and time too...  "Yes honey, the ACW figures are blue with kepis, and the Empire figures are blue with shakos, but *these* figures are blue with bicornes!" 

The relationship between the sculptor and Pendraken isn't one we want to intrude into, but essentially we need realistic, practical guidance on what would be needed to start, sustain, and develop the line. I don't think anyone should be shy about saying what is needed, and I'm optimistic that people would be surprised by the amount of concrete commitments available. For starters I don't even think we need exact details. We know that each "side" will be a couple dozen packs, and that each pack will have a few poses, so we should be thinking about the project in gross terms such as "how much support and time is needed to justify 50 figures? 100 figures?"

In terms of the bigger picture (developing Pendraken Napoleonics) it's probably better to view this as a project that extends the 1809 project back into the Glory Years, rather than starts at 1792 and somehow joins in the middle. Sure, they may be different sculptors, but realistically there is a continuum of gaming for those nationalities that could be greatly expanded by the addition of the earlier French uniforms, with the other earlier uniforms added on as opponents just as is always done.

As I said, I'm glad to see the continued interest all around, and the discussion continuing.

Cheers,

Christopher

[von Winterfeldt]

Clibenarium would be my sculptor of choice - he knows his stuff and also is good in research.

I don't want a French Revolutionary Range on the cheap - but instead first class, the best I could get.

An option would be to ask Clibenarium what a master would cost in 10 mm - to make it attractive for him to sculpt full time in that scale.

Instead of subscribing the range we could pay for the masters - or part of the masters.

Isn't TDQ designs doing such a thing?

[Wkeyser]

Hi
I would also like Gareth to be the sculptor, however, if he can not commit to the time needed or the time frame that I think is also needed say 12-18 months for at least 90% of this range then perhaps Pendraken could use another sculptor to do it, the 1870 range is very  nice and I dont think Gareth did that but I might be mistaken.
William

[Chad]

William

Think the payment/part payment for the masters is an excellent idea. Although I do not know the cost of masters, it may be that the commitment per indivudual customer per master may not be too great. Given that the capital outlay is reduced for Dave, a further incentive for potential customers may be a small discount on subsequent purchases; volume related(?). I would imagine contributors would also have to waive any rights over the masters.

Would be interested to see if anyone else sees this as a possible way forward.

Chad

[von Winterfeldt]

It is no problem to waive rights, see how TQD - did it - you sponsor the master and get x amount of cast figures - the producer - here Pendraken - will hold the rights on the masters.

[Leon]

Having the customers paying for the masters has been brought up at various times over the years and something we've always said 'No' to.  It's just not worth the risks/problems/hassle involved with us taking money from people, then them having to waive any rights to the masters, and then working out who's owed what, etc.  I'm sure people will have contrasting arguments on that front, but it's not something we'd be interested in doing.

I think the next thing to do is for us to talk with Clib about what kind of budget would make it more viable for him as a full-time project, and how that matches up with what we can realistically afford.

[CATenWolde]

Fair enough. Just keep in mind that there are options to alleviate some of the up-front financial concerns through member support of some sort, however you want to organize it.

[andysmodels]

Hi Leon
Cost is the main problem with any new range but as this range 1792-1815 the scope for a lot of sales over a long time it may be worth the outlay on this range.
From the comments made you may have some people already wanting some good size Armies when you get the range released. I am looking forward to seeing how far you will take this range.
The 1809 range is a very good starting point as it will for the most part cover to 1815 with a few more French bits added and the Austrians almost done as well. You will also have the 1806 Saxons done as they are in the same Unifrom in 1809 so that bit is done. Most of the other Rhine Armies are in French or Bavarian Unifroms, so you only need British, Russian and Prussian up to 1815 then to work 1792 to 1808.
Some masters you will be able to use as multi codes as they will cover more that one Nation and that will cut your costs down.
One thing that is in my mind is that the same designer does all the masters 1792-1815 or figures may look out of sorts as different designers make figures different sizes around the waist and height (eye line or top of head) and that can look bad.
Andy

[von Winterfeldt]

The Saxons of 1809 and those of 1806 are by no means identical - in 1806 they did wear the Kittel - had a hip pack, the sabre was carried on the waist
belt - in 1809 they did wear the coats - hooked down as far as possible to create the illusion of straight lapels and also had a pack and the back, like the French infantry and also cross belts.

Here 1806 as they should look like :



and in 1809



In case you like to see more details to produce Saxons fitting for 1809 let me know.