Polish Soviet war

[Husaria]

Hi All,

I have just watched a Polish film, 'Battle of Warsaw 1920', depicting the events of the Polish Soviet War of this time. I really enjoyed the film and I was inspired to follow it up by reading more about the conflict, which I'll admit I knew next to nothing about. Now I understand just how important this conflict sits within the course of modern European history and how things could have turned out very differently if the Poles hadn't halted the advance of the Red Army. 

Anyway, all this has got me thinking (yet again) of another period to possibly wargame, but what about the figures ? I see Pendraken have some RCW figures, but what about the Polish forces-especially the cavalry (Uhlans etc) ? I was reading how this conflict saw the last great cavalry engagement in history, where mounted troops were used to charge other cavalry.   

Any thoughts/ideas would be appreciated,

Tim

[Bernie]

To add to the movie try following two books

White Eagle, Red Star by Davies - old book avaialbe from Abe/Ebay or more modern one by Zamoyski "Warsaw 1920" which I got very cheaply from Naval & Mil press

For Polish you can use WWI French in Adrian or the WWI Poles in Chapska. As Poles created out of Austrian/Gernman and Russian empires you can happily mix in Austrian/Russian in cap. For artillery French/Russian/German/Austrian guns will do and even some French light tanks. Also can use almost any of the WWI armoured cars available from Pendraken and also most late war Wings of War planes with a new paint job

Not so sure about the Poles being the bulwark against which world communism failed, which Poles and French (who provided much kit and senior mil advistors). Logistically the Red Army at the end of its tether by the time it got to the Vistula, never mind their intention of "watering their horses on the Rhine"

Fascinating war of varied kit large space and few troops so lots of movement

[Husaria]

Hi,

Thanks Bernie, those are really useful links, which I can follow up.

Also, good ideas for the forces and kit involved. I should have checked the WW1 section more carefully and I would have seen the Polish figs available !

Your'e right about the use of French infantry, as in the film-and some pictures I've seen- some of the Poles wore French helmets.  Does anyone know if the Polish cavalry figures are carrying a lance or do they have sabers ?  I suppose I could mix in the Russian Cavalry and Cossacks to mix up the Soviet Forces.

Thanks,

Tim

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi

You can also mix in WW1 Italians that have Adrian helmets but no greatcoats for more variety. I think the WW1 French cavalry have lances with Adrian. Also don't forget the multitude of various guerrilla and independent forces racing around at that time ie similar to Makhnovists etc. WW1 Brits in greatcoats can be handy as well.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[maciek]

For some pics of Polish soldiers in 1920:
http://hosting5803197.az.pl/wojna-polsko-bolszewicka/wojsko-polskie/
Use google tranlator for the text - many interestng informations there.

Polish troops used a mix of weapn and uniforms, mainly adapted German and Austrian ones.

more photos here:
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/51,114873,8250512.html?i=1

Divisions of General Haller "blue army" that served alogside the French, wore French uniforms.

If yoy watched this crappy "Battle of Warsaw 1920" movie by Jerzy Hoffman you can use uniforms shown there.
A chief military consultant was s a friend of mine, and I'm sure uniforms and equipment were shown properly.
Generally photos of Polish reenactors are good source of uniforms. They are very fussy about historical accuracy.
http://www.gryhistoryczne.waw.pl/forum_archiwalne/www.yelonky.fora.pl/i-wojna-swiatowa%2c13/wojna-polsko-bolszewicka-1920r%2c574.html

I know that I'm biased a bit but:

Not so sure about the Poles being the bulwark against which world communism failed, which Poles and French (who provided much kit and senior mil advistors).

French junior military advisors role was invaluable as they helped to train soldiers of new army, but AFAIK senior French advisors' main contribution was an advice to dig line of trenches along the Vistula river.
Furtunatelly, Polish general staff choose a wide flanking move.

Logistically the Red Army at the end of its tether by the time it got to the Vistula, never mind their intention of "watering their horses on the Rhine"

They didn't want to march further west. Their aim was to "give helping hand" to their German comrades. Communist party was still strong in Germany.
http://www.historicaleye.com/bloodhounds.html
http://www.historicaleye.com/Munich1.html
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1919/apr/27.htm

[Bernie]

Hi Maciek

If you want a real obscure wargame try "Freikorps" by Brian Train of Soviet support for the German Revolutionaties - excellent little game and just noticed there is a prequel being done on the Warsaw Campaign and a means to link them together. "Proletarians to Horse!" "Huzzah!"

Right where is that Pendraken list so I can create Budyenny's Cavalry Army, Spartacists, Freikorps and Poles!

Happy Gaming

[freddy326]

Welcome to a really fascinating and confusing period of history!!

There is a very good description of the Polish cavalry in White Eagle/Red Star book (I think) which, to paraphrase, means you could use German, Austrian, Polish, French, Russian or British figures!

As far as figures are concerned you could use almost any WWI and RCW figures for pretty much any side/faction and that includes the Ukrainians, Estonians and Latvians!!

The French senior military advisors (by and large) seem to have been generally ignored, but a myth did grow about Weygand and the Allied Military Mission saving of Warsaw!!

[maciek]

This myth was later supported by Pilsudski's political enemies (National Democrats).

[freddy326]

This myth was later supported by Pilsudski's political enemies (National Democrats).

It also really confused Weygand! He admitted in his memoirs that he told French journalist that "the victory was Polish, the plan was Polish, the army was Polish"

[Husaria]

Hi,

Thanks for all the really useful suggestions and links. It proves just why it was such a good idea to register and begin seeking information from others . 

Tim

[freddy326]

Thanks for all the really useful suggestions and links. It proves just why it was such a good idea to register and begin seeking information from others . 

there's some really useful info here

http://pygmy-wars.50megs.com/

[lekw]

In my opinion the Polish in the film were a bit to uniformed. Just my opinion based on pictures of the film I have seen. My understanding from reading is that the Polish army was a real mix of German, Austrian, British, French and civilian equipment and uniforms. The Polish in the movie look a bit more like mid 1920's, again in my opinion, after the war and standardization.

[lekw]

The site posted by maciek seems to evidence my point. I think this is an accurate portrayal of Polish uniforms during the war.

[Natxo]

Hello:

I bought french infantry and MG,s to use as Haller,s Blue Legion. WWI Polish will be painted in a light brown, I bought infantry, cavalry and MG,s; and German miniatures to be used as silesian polish, and also as freikorps.

You can organize a very good polish army with the existing ranges.

[Leman]

Watched the film then played the game using my mate's 10mm Polish army against his Red army. The Poles romped to victory - thanks to the lancers and the air squadron. Used Square Bashing.