Early wips of Ancient Spanish

[Techno]

Thanks Phobos !

Errrr.....
The 'heavy' group aren't on my list for a command group as I write.
You'll probably have to twist Leon's arm......Maybe some quick conversions once the above have been cast up ?
Cheers - Phil.

[Phobos]

No mounted command? strange! But they are still great!

[Leon]

The Heavy Cavalry have a command group also?

The 'heavy' group aren't on my list for a command group as I write.

There was a standard on the list for the lights, but I've just checked for the heavies, and I'd only sent Phil a note saying 'as above' which was probably rather vague!     If one of the spears could be converted into the standard, that'd work?  And then we'll have to look at converting one of the heavy helmets into a General's one instead.

[Phobos]

There was a standard on the list for the lights, but I've just checked for the heavies, and I'd only sent Phil a note saying 'as above' which was probably rather vague!     If one of the spears could be converted into the standard, that'd work?  And then we'll have to look at converting one of the heavy helmets into a General's one instead.

Yep, of course that works

The general with falcata could be? pleaaaaase?

[Leon]

We'll do a separate General figure for the range, so it'll be an officer-type with the heavy cav.  Have you got any good pics for a Spanish general?

[Phobos]

Wow, difficult question... Archeology and sources didn´t give too much hints about the look of ancient Iberia chieftains and kings, but I could give some ideas...

These are two of the 16 missing celtiberian/iberian helmets found in Botorrita, most of the experts think that they´re from a royal entombment.




These two are two interpretations of the same source, the wolf-headed pectoral statuette.



Romand and greek sources don´t regard the iberians so luxurious as the gauls, son maybe they´ve been more humble in their appearence. In resume, I think that a chieftain or iberian king would not be so different from an elite warrior of his troops, maybe with a more ornamented helm and shield, and a cloak.

[Leon]

Thanks for the pics, I think those first helmets would be rather difficult to cast!   

The other type looks the same as the one Techno has put on the light cav officer, so we'll go with something like that I think.

[Phobos]

Heavy cavalry could have a Wolf standard? Wolf are magical beast in ancient Spain, creatures of the underworld, and sign of war and death.

[Techno]

 

Maybe  .....I'll see what I can do....But no promises.
Cheers - Phil

[Phobos]

Btw Techno. How do you made the heavy cavalry shields?

[Techno]

Well.

The easiest way would be for me to make just the one....send it off to Leon and have him cast me a few in metal.

But.....To cut out any delay though the post etc, I (again) just make the one 'flat' shape out of a mix of ProCreate and Magic Sculp on a piece of plasticard....and let it thoroughly set.
Without removing the set 'shield' from the plasticard, I'll 'paint' a tiny amount of something like 3 in 1 Oil onto the shield shape and a little way around it as well.
Next stage....Mix up a small quantity of green stuff and press it firmly onto the shield and the surround.
Once that's set, I can peel the green stuff away.....and in the green stuff I've got a nice little flat mould.
To make the next shield...I'll again use the oil as a releasing agent and fill the flat cavity with some more Procreate/Magic Sculp mix.....
Let it set....and just pop it out of the green stuff mould....This can be done again and again if you're careful.

I'll sometimes need to neaten up my 'casting'...sanding a tiny bit off here...adding a tiny bit of putty there....But it only takes a few minutes.

Once I've got my 'flat shield' shapes I can use green stuff to make the 'boss'.

As far as making the original shape is concerned....If that's what you were meant....I tend to do those by 'eye'.
I'll look at a reference picture of the size and shape of the shield....

Let's imagine the shield is portrayed as going from around the heel to the shoulder on a warrior.
I'll use a pair of dividers (I think they're called) to measure against the appropriate size against one of Leon's dollies.
I'll then use the dividers to mark the piece of plasticard on which I'm going to make my 'master' shield....Then, as I say above, I tend to do it freehand, by eye.

I hope this makes sense !
I seem to made it sound far more complicated than it actually is !!

Once I get on to some slightly (from a sculpting point of view) 'more complex' shields next year....I'm going to make sure I've got hold of some of the 'Instant Mould' as mentioned in Michael's wonderful 1809 blog !!

Cheers - Phil.

[Phobos]

Thanks a lot! I used to think that you made it with slices of plastic rods, at least for the round shields.

[Techno]

Thanks a lot! I used to think that you made it with slices of plastic rods, at least for the round shields.

Plastic wouldn't work in a normal vulcanizing press, unfortunately Phobos.
It would get too hot and melt !
Although there are low temperature rubber moulds available, it's always safer (from my point of view) to assume whatever is being pressed, needs to be made out of one, or more, of the 'normal' putties used for making the models.
There's no reason NOT to do as you suggest....if you were doing some conversions for your own troops.
Cheers - Phil.

[Dunnadd]

Really like that helmet, but it looks to me like the "horns" on it are actually flat and maybe used to hold some kind of feathers or crests?

[Dunnadd]

Dinas Powys wrote

Actually the 'Celts' never existed, and the concept of 'Celtic' art or culture is invalid.

There never was a 'pan-European Celtic culture' traditionally expressed as such things as the 'La Tene' or Halstatt' cultures.

Its a complete myth. 

The modern idea of a 'Celtic fringe' to Europe is also a modern myth, or rather a modern reactionary political 'cultural movement' that has led to things like the Welsh and Scottish Assemblies (although Mel Gibson's dreadful 'Braveheart' movie had a lot to do with the Scots thinking they have some sort of national past).

Which is why this stuff still matters of course, because people today use history for current purposes.

As i said above the only legitimate use of the term 'Celt' is as part of the Celtiberian tribal name.

I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. There were certainly differences among different Celtic tribes, but it was the Greeks and Romans who first talked about Celts, not people in the modern era looking back. If you're going to say Celts don't exist then neither would Celt-Iberians as they were also a variety of tribes with varying customs. Celts shared the same language (though different dialects) and religions and were a culture the same as Hellenistic culture.

The Celtic fringe isn't a myth either, as Romano-British and earlier Celtic culture survived most in Wales, Scotland and Ireland as these were the areas that Anglo-Saxon invaders never fully conquered (though of course Viking invasions did affect them all later). Braveheart was certainly historically inaccurate on many things - and medieval and dark age history should not be brought into the independence debate - it's irrelevant to it - but to say that Scotland didn't exist as a nation historically is just plain factually wrong - there was a Kingdom of Scotland from the 12th century at the latest and possibly from the 9th (though the latter is debatable). Braveheart may be wrong on many points but on the existence of the Kingdom of Scotland and the Wars of Independence against England, it is not wrong. Those are historical facts, even if the wars were often as much civil wars among Scottish rivals for the throne as they were wars between England and Scotland.