Is there a limit?

[Leon]

I was just pondering as I was browsing a couple of other fora, and noticed a bit of a theme with some things.

GW keep banging their prices up, reducing quantities, switching to Finecast, etc.  Other companies have very high shipping rates, some have appalling customer service, some take upto 6 months to ship, and some even have strange minimum order levels which stop you getting the odds and ends you might need.  Despite any of it, people still buy from them?

So, if you like the product, is there a limit to what you'll stand for?

(PS, I know that we need more pics on the website, people in glass houses and all...  )

[Steve J]

Quality, price and customer service always win it for me. You lose anyone one of these and then you've probably lost me as a customer.

[sam scott]

Probably the 2 most important factors for me are quality and service.  I'm willing to pay a premium for a company that can provide both.

[Rob]

Hi Leon the following is meant in the best spirit. (I have an order in and I don’t want it to be thrown in the bin  )

First off I think the enemy is not other 10mm manufacturers it is 15mm manufacturers. To me the current crop of Napoleonic’s has regenerated my enthusiasm, the quality is so good. I cannot see myself buying anything in 15mm again. I am sure other people feel the same about ranges such as the new Roman/Carthaginians, AWI, SCW and L-of-A. But to replace 15mm as the most popular range for the wargame community as whole you need to be able to compete on level terms with them and then the logic of 10mm will win the battle for you.

What I mean by this is you need ranges that are complete enough for people to buy the basics and be able to wargame with them straight away, so they can go down their club and their mates will be impressed. So a range has to have the basics done first, all the nice to haves such as engineers, Archduke Charles Legion and the umpteenth brilliant looking matchlock musketeer are all nice-to-haves but not the bread and butter basics. The infantry cavalry and artillery must be done before the nice-to-haves so a working army can be created. Coupled with all of this there is a need for rules that cater primarily for 10mm first and all the other scales second and these then should be used to hold 10mm wargame competitions. I do not do competitions now but nearly all of my 15mm ancient armies were originally bought for competition gaming and it did induce me to spend many many hundreds of pounds on many many ancient armies. So perhaps you should look at finding “that“ set of wargame rules that is right for 10mm.

As regards your original question as k 5 people and you will get 5 different answers. Its all a personal preference thing. All the following points to me are equally important but different people will assign varying importance to each. They are given here in no particular order of merit.
•   The models you want when you want them. By that I mean if you have started buying a range that is incomplete you will look elsewhere to fill the gaps.

•   Quality. The models must be at least of minimum quality (whatever that is) for you to spend money. If there is a choice the highest quality model generally wins but not always.

•   Price. People will generally pay extra for quality but there are limits. GW stuff is high quality but somehow they always seem to leave me with the impression they are ripping my lads off. There is a chap in Pontypool that sells fantastically good vehicles but the price is just toooo much. On the other hand there is a chap in the East Midlands that sells high quality tanks that are rather expensive but he spent half an hour going through the finer points of air-brushes and their use with me, gives me 25% off for substantial orders and still always throws in a few extras, now that breeds loyalty.

•   Service. That is where you earn customer loyalty. When you provide a personal service people will generally forgive any fo-pahs. All of the preceding points can be a little off but you can still be first choice when that service is there.

Cheers, Rob 

[Luddite]

So, if you like the product, is there a limit to what you'll stand for?

(PS, I know that we need more pics on the website, people in glass houses and all...   )

Yes, there definately are limits for me.

Poor service.
Lack of communication.
Requesting excessive data.
Overlong delivery times (if Pendraken didn't score so hghly on most of my other red lines, the 2-4 week delivery delays would be a step too far).
Poor quality (including miscasts, excessive flash, etc.)
Fiddly bits & unneccessary construction (Perry plastics...shudder)

[Maenoferren]

Living where i do, stupid postage rates for living in the ZE post code grrrrrr
They have a little thing free postage to x, y and z but if living in a particular post code contact them and then lo and behold offer to post it for £7, which wouldnt be bad on a £50 order, but when the order was £5.50 not on at all 
it will stop me buying the product, simple as that.

not seeing the product can put me off, but if I am interested in it i will dig around and see if i can find an image elsewhere.
good service is important too, poor service is a baddy, will cause avoidance of the place again.

[Leon]

Some interesting stuff so far.  I wasn't posting this with my 'Pendraken' head on, it was more interest in the difference between the wargaming market, and the more modern Amazon/eBay instant gratification style of retailing.  With so many companies being run on a part-time cottage industry basis, will they suffer long-term as the bigger companies can offer the shiny professional marketing, and the next day delivery?

What I mean by this is you need ranges that are complete enough for people to buy the basics and be able to wargame with them straight away, so they can go down their club and their mates will be impressed. So a range has to have the basics done first, all the nice to haves such as engineers, Archduke Charles Legion and the umpteenth brilliant looking matchlock musketeer are all nice-to-haves but not the bread and butter basics. The infantry cavalry and artillery must be done before the nice-to-haves so a working army can be created.

I agree with that completely, and hopefully those gaps will become less and less as we move forward.  On ranges which are still in the works though, it's only a temporary thing.  The Naps for example, it's simply that the designer likes to do things in an organised way, so it's all foot first, then cav, then art, etc.

Coupled with all of this there is a need for rules that cater primarily for 10mm first and all the other scales second and these then should be used to hold 10mm wargame competitions. I do not do competitions now but nearly all of my 15mm ancient armies were originally bought for competition gaming and it did induce me to spend many many hundreds of pounds on many many ancient armies. So perhaps you should look at finding “that“ set of wargame rules that is right for 10mm.

I'm not sure about 10mm competitions, the market share would need to dramatically increase to make that viable I'd think.  GW managed it with WM because of their influence and resources.

I suppose the rules side of things throws up a different question, do you find rules you like and then look for the figures, or do you buy nice figures and then find rules to use them with?  (This probably deserves it's own thread!   )

Requesting excessive data.
Overlong delivery times (if Pendraken didn't score so hghly on most of my other red lines, the 2-4 week delivery delays would be a step too far).

The excessive data one was something we consciously looked at when designing the new website, and we've hopefully kept it to a reasonable level.  Aside from name, address and what you want, there's not much else any company needs.

On delivery times, I don't think we ever get up to 4 weeks, although the postie might take his time...    This is something we really want to work on this year, and get it down to around 3-7 days maximum.  It'll never be next day, we simply don't have the stock level/space to support that, but somewhere close would be nice.

Living where i do, stupid postage rates for living in the ZE post code grrrrrr

To be honest, I've never even registered any price difference when we post stuff to you, it just goes in as UK 1st class with everything else.  I'd assume other companies must be using couriers who make that distinction?

[Shecky]

You asked, "if you like the product, is there a limit to what you'll stand for?" I guess I might look at it a bit differently.To a certain degree I game mostly in 10mm and 6mm due to what I want to put on the table, which is influenced by price, quality, availability and desire. So a manufacturer or supplier increasing the price doesn't really affect me too much.

I started gaming 30 years ago by collecting 15mm figures. I had figures for ACW, WWII, Napoleonics and a host of other smaller wars. I went with 15mm not only because that's what everyone else I gamed with had but because they were a better value than 25s. I could spend 50% less for a 15mm army than if I bought a 25mm army. Or actually, I could build an army two times larger than I could for the same price of 25s.

I was away from the hobby for a number of years and when I came back I decided to go with 6mm and 10mm as my prefered scale. I decided on this because of the quality of the figures - they're not just lumps of lead as some people say, the ranges cover a number of periods (availability), the price is less than 15mm and because I want to field large armies. I prefer my linear armies to look like a linear army and not a reenactment group.

So 10mm checks all my boxes: affordable (check), quality (check), availability (check), aesthetics (check).

The only time I would think of going to another scale is if there is not something available in 10mm or 6mm. So for instance, the Mexican American War and War of 1812 really interest me. No one makes figures for these periods so if I ever decide to build forces for these periods I will probably have to go to 15s. However, I have so many other projects to complete in 10mm that by the time I decide to start those projects they might be available in 10mm (hint hint).

Tom

[FierceKitty]

Pendraken makes what is needed for the war of 1812. So do Magister Militum, though their Russian range is limited, and Irregular Miniatures, while AIM and Old Glory both do the French. You can fight Borodino all you want to.

[Shecky]

I should have explained...
I meant the War of 1812 in North America.

Actually, I could probably find some Napoleonic figures that would substitute for US Regular troops but might have difficulty coming up with suitable figures for the militia.

[NTM]

Yes there are limits e.g. before Xmas I was looking at 15mm Japanese for a skirmish project. Eureka have an excellent range but it would have worked out more than double than anyone else, Skytrex got the order figures may not have been quite as nice but they're still very good and suit my purpose and wallet.

[sunjester]

Assuming that I actually want the product in the first place;

1. Cost of the product (against quality and availability from other manufacturers)
2. Postage costs
3. Service
4. Can it wait to the next show I can get to?

Over priced product and high postage/stupid minimum order just lose my money straight away.

For the last 3 or 4 years I have only mail ordered wargames products from 3 sources, private sales on Ebay, Pendraken and Pithead.

[Chad]

Interesting discussion.

My preferences are:

1. Service - Good, friendly service is undoubtedly the key to establishing a loyal customer base. You have to be careful about bending over backwards to satisfy everyone's requirements, however, or things become fragmented. I understand the point about the modellers, but in that situation should new ranges not be withheld until the basic constituents are available as has been referred to earlier?

2. Price - I think this goes hand in hand with quality in the first instance, but it is also a question of what an individual can afford. I started with 28s, moved to 15s and now concentrate on 10s. The quality of each has improved beyond recognition since I started 40 years ago and the current level of quality of 10mm figures is certainly on a par with larger scales. However, I can no longer afford to buy the larger scales in bulk and, why should I try, when 10mm offers me quality at a price I can afford. Price increases are a fact of life no matter what business you are in and sooner or later everyone has to increase prices, but sometimes the size and frequency of such increases are questionable.

3. Postage/shipping - This does annoy me. There are manufacturers who quite clearly have never consulted a postal scale and worked out how much it costs to send packages. It's not rocket science to do this the scales are all weight related. I noticed recently that MM have reduced their charges from £5 to £3.50. Why? Postal rates have not decreased.

I found the earlier comment on rules a little strange. Few if any rules are designed for a single scale and a set normally outlines the changes required to use different scale figures. Even if it doesn't it's an easy thing to do yourself.

Chad

[Luddite]

not seeing the product can put me off

Ooohhh...good one.
Yeah this is a show stopper for me, especially online.
No photos, no order - simple.

Pendraken, again, wins me over on this a bit with its other virtues, but there are definately ranges and purchases that i won't make until the pictures are up...

it was more interest in the difference between the wargaming market, and the more modern Amazon/eBay instant gratification style of.

Not sure i'd characterise online retailing elsewhere as 'instant gratification'.  Generally its definately delayed - especially evilbay where delivery seems typically to be about 5-7 days...

Personally i accept the delay in online shopping as its far more convenient.  For wargaming its also pretty much the only option outside of shows.

For me with these things its very much about communication.  If i buy something and it says up front 'delivery in 7-10 days', i'm happy as long as it arrives within that time period.

Early Pendraken orders for example were a bit suspicious until i found out your 'cast to order' policy...no problem - now i know.

The rage comes out when it says 'delivery in 7-10 days' and 14 days later you're still waiting.  Guaranteed to stop me giving repeat business.  Black Tree took the p*** with a 6 month delivery and no answer to my emails...i'd basically forgotten about it and wrote the £30 off.  It did eventually arrive but there were 7 miscasts...  I'll never order from them again.   

GW keep banging their prices up, reducing quantities, switching to Finecast, etc.

Now then, in general i'm in quite a lucky position in that prices are generally a secondary factor for me and so i don't consider them a 'red line' when purchasing.  However...GW are SO obviously, ridiculously overpriced that i can't remember the last core line product of theirs i bought.  I do like their paints though, althought the new cheap pots suck and i've kept my old pots for reuse (pouring the new paint  into the old pots)...but seriously, £10.50 for a single Finecast figure is just insane.  And the quality really isn't much better than other suppliers out there.  They also fail for me on the 'fiddly construction' red line i mentioned above.  Fair enough you can make each figure slightly different but i do not want to spend more time glueing the damned things together than actually painting them.  And the sprues waste so much plastic/money too.  £15 for 10 figures and 60% of what i bought is sprue that gets ditched...

Give me pre-cast figures in 5-6 different poses any day.

So yeah, price is a limiter too, but it needs to be hugely excessive.


Oooh...another one...

Limited range / figure poses.  There needs to be a few different poses to give a bit of variety.  And if doing a range it needs to be complete so i can source any options i need.  (Tricky one on fantasy/sci fi that i suppose!!!)

[sebigboss79]

Is there a limit to what you accept for miniatures you like?

Well yes of course there is.

GW (since you mentioned them) has crossed this limit some time ago (broken gameplay, spiralling powergaming, Failcast, reduction in quality, service and quantity bt raising prices)

Technically everybody gets the chance to p.. me off. But only once and thats it. I can understand delivery may take an extra day or two. If the rest of the package makes up for it, so be it.
As soon as the larger picture starts to detoriate I am reluctant to spend my money.

To get this more to the direct sales/ ebay corner. I do not accept ANY imperfection there. Three people have tried to spoil my day, all three have made a very costly encounter with me.