Operation Sealion

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

As I recall, the British fleets never operated inthe channel until the allies had full air superiority later in the war for that reason?

Happy to be told otherwise by someone with beter knowledge than me though!

Cheers,

Kev

Also, they were too busy escorting convoys into places like Liverpool!

[freddy326]

other than (maybe) Dieppe and Operation Overlord, did the RN capital ships ever operate offensively in the Channel?

The Luftwaffe didn't really have that much success against the destroyers at Dunkirk, for all the sorties and bomb used, they sunk something like 6 and damaged 19 over 10 days and they only managed to hit something like 1 in 100 ships of the channel convoys. Assuming that a fair percentage of these weren't even moving, then attacking a fast moving destroyer with lots of sea room to maneuvre in will be more difficult.

I think there were also several hundred small craft in harbours along the South Coast that were to be used in the event of an invasion and also RN submarines.

I have no trouble with a 'What-if' scenario, I'm a wargamer after all and I'm determined to do a Sealion campaign at some stage!!

[republic of tolworth]

I think in the 'what if' section should also include the French fleet.

What if it was not sunk in july? Maybe it would have gone to American waters like it was supposed to . Thus free to aid the British in stopping any invasion.

Or maybe if falls in to German hands and thus enables a German invasion.

It was far from being a lame duck at that time. 4 battleships and 6 destroyers, on either side was not to be sniffed at!


Bon chance

[fred.]

I think with an enemy invasion fleet in the channel then the RN would have been thrown in. At that point there would have been little reason to preserve the fleet for later use, which is one reason why it wasn't risked in the channel earlier.

The German invasion barges were mainly river vessels, I have heard it suggested that Destroyers running fast among them would have swamped them just with their wash.

The Battle of Britan indicated that the Germans wouldn't risk everything to invade britain. Whereas I suspect that the British would have thrown everything in.

[Luddite]

There's a FoW forum?   

I'm surprised they even know what Operation Sealion was...too busy arguing whether the German power armour and jet packs are worth the points...

[Squirrel]

I'm surprised they even know what Operation Sealion was...too busy arguing whether the German power armour and jet packs are worth the points...

Of course they are! Who needs invasion barges when you have jet packs

Cheers,

Kev

[JimLeCat]

The initial landings went almost unhindered for the Germans, with most of the initiial beach assaults coming in without too much trouble.  they only struggled on one beach and lost a couple of battalions before camping on the sands when the second wave failed and the commanders called off the third wave.

I think that's a slightly pessimistic viewpoint!  Given the light forces we had on the beaches, I'm surprised we stopped them on even one! With the forces they assaulted with, there was no question they were going to succeed, but they took pretty heavy casualties across the board - and most of our troops withdrew to fight on...

Oh, and I do have a number of photos (limited since I was busy most of the time during the games!  ). I was waiting to see if they are needed for the official write-up...

Talking of which, have you submitted your AAR yet? 

[Luddite]

Yep,  AAR went to the umpire after week 2 completed the defence of the airfield.

You're right though Jim, we were facing certain loss of the beaches.  IT wasn't IF we lost, but how long we could hold and how much we could kill.  You're right we did a fair job, but on most of the landings Jerry lost 3:1 or fewer - good odds for the Germans.

Still, as you say we've managed to get most of our troops out intact.  Can't wait to see what happens next!

By the the way chaps, Jim & i have a debate about British tactics re: resisting the Germans.  So i wonder what your thoughts are on the following matter?

Should the British try to hold Dover or withdraw from the coast completely?
What would be the effect of giving the Germans a free run at a major port?

 

[Hertsblue]

Should the British try to hold Dover or withdraw from the coast completely?
What would be the effect of giving the Germans a free run at a major port?

 

It would allow them to offload heavy equipment (i.e. panzers) that much more quickly. You need specialised vessels to land vehicles over the beaches. This, of course pre-supposes that the RN didn't or couldn't interfere.

Also, Dover Castle was, or would soon become, HQ for the local naval forces and a communications centre for most of that part of the world.

EDIT: Quote box fixed.

[Jim Ando]

withdraw from the coast

but then I`m biased as I`m one of the german players.

Jim

[Luddite]

withdraw from the coast

We might...

[Steve J]

A few points from memory of a book I was reading last night:

- The Home Fleet was to be kept at Scapa Flo. To risky to try and manouvre in the Channel. Also engaged in trying to keep convoy routes open and dealing with the French Fleet.
- Destroyers withdrawn to Portsmouth after some Jagdgeswcwader strikes on one or two. Dover Straits effectively open.
- British had one depleted infantry division covering the Dover area. These to be withdrawn after token resistance to the GHQ line. Most units up along the East Anglian coast.

Interesting reading with regards to this thread. I'll post the name of the book tonight if required.

[alnewhaven]

Interesting thread.  As mentioned the Germans were intending to cross using flat bottomed Rhine barges, not really suitable for the Channel.  They would have lost a few due to weather without any input from the RN. 

Intersting forum here dealing with Sealion.  http://www.historum.com/speculative-history/6085-operation-sealion-all-far-fetched-5.html

In particular:

I have only just come across this site, and have been fascinated by the references to the German Fleet. In fact, the German fleet in the Summer of 1940, far from including three battleships, actually consisted of one heavy cruiser with defective engines (Hipper), two 6 inch cruisers (Nurnberg & Koln), and an old training cruiser (Emden), together with six or seven destroyers.

Similarly, the Germans did not have access to train ferries or anything similar, but were dependant upon Rhine barges towed by trawlers to transport their invasion force. To protect this force, they had the half dozen destroyers and a few torpedo boats, as the cruisers were to operate in the North Sea, carrying out an operation intended to persuade the British that an assault on the north east coast, or even Scotland, was planned.

To deal with the virtually unprotected sealion barges, the Royal Navy had some sixty destroyers and cruisers between Plymouth & Harwich. The Home fleet itself ( Hood, Rodney, Nelson, 3 light cruisers and 17 destroyers) was largely based at Rosyth, with Repulse, Furious, two 8 inch cruisers, 2 light cruisers and 7 destroyers at Scapa Flow. It was not intended that the heavy ships should operate in the Channel unless any German heavy ships were detected in or approaching the area ( at the time, of course, the Admiralty were not fully aware of exactly how weak the Kriegsmarine was), because the destroyer and cruiser forces based in the south were deemed more than capable of dealing with the invasion.

The heavy guns on the French coast which it was intended would protect the flanks of the sealion convoys were useless; during the whole of the war not one allied ship was hit by them, and the minefields would have been swept by the Royal Navy as quickly as the Germans could lay them.

Contrary to the popular myth, the Luftwaffe was not a major threat to the Royal Navy in 1940. Of 38 RN destroyers at Dunkirk, in restricted waters and unable to operate at speed, only four were sunk by aircraft. In any case, the invasion plan called for a night crossing, when aircraft were useless. Torpedo aircraft might have threatened the larger RN warships, but the Luftwaffe didn't have any.

In short, 'Operation Sealion; was it all that far fetched?' Absolutely, it was never remotely possible, not because of the Battle of Britain, but because of the Royal Navy. The best recent book on the subject, by far, is 'Hitler's Armada' published by Pen & Sword, and I would urge anyone who really wants to know the plain unvarnished truth to get hold of a copy.

I also recall a programme on TV last year which mentioned that Bomber Command raids on the invasion ports were a factor in delaying the invasion. 

In addition, think of the tight window Overlord had to operate in 4 years later, with more specialised equipment than the Germans had available and I think chances of success become even slimmer.