Operation Sealion

[Luddite]

Hi chaps,

OK, so at our club we've just kicked off a sizable campaign speculatively fighting Hitler's Directive No. 16 'Betriebsseelöwe' (Operation Sealion).

We're using GHQ rules and of course 10mm Pendraken minis.

So far we've played the battles of the first few hours and in our campaign:

• The Germans have secured three beach heads. 
  They failed to secure a fourth, but have camped on the sands...unknown to them the British defenders, their flanks now exposed are following their general orders to withdraw inland.
  Their Fallschirmjaegers secured the Hawkinge airfield after some serious hard fighting where the British garrison inflicted heavy losses before being overrun and withdrawing...

OK...stop rambling...so, i thought i'd therefore ask the age old wargamer question...


Would Operation Sealion ever have been successful for the Germans? 

What would have to have happened for them to do so?

Of course the famous Sandhurst wargame in the 1970's concluded the Germans had no chance, but did they?


It'll be interesting to see how our campaign pans out.  I'm playing the British senior commander and it looks pretty grim for us at the moment!

[Squirrel]

I'll be interested to hear how you get on ......

In reality, the Germans problem was getting across the channel, they didn't really have anything seaworth to transport AFVs etc. If they had overcome that, and freed up troops by not invading Russia, then things could have turned out very differently.

Cheers,

Kev

[Leveller Mutineer]

I agree with Squirrel (not something I ever thought I would have to say ), the main problem was crossing the channel.  Assuming that they had achieved air superiority the only problem for them would have been the Royal Navy.  And, as the naval battles in the Pacific showed, air power might have seen to that.

Although Britain and it's Commonwealth had an industrial powerhouse that far outstripped Germany, in the early part of the war it wasn't on a war footing.  After Dunkirk and the equipment that was lost, times were so bad that they were even contemplating using poison gas on the beaches.  The key for the Germans was to defeat the RAF and quickly get across before the industry of the Commonwealth picked up and rearmed the British Army (don't forget lend lease wasn't signed until March 1941 so there was no help from the States with military equipment at that time).  With no heavy equipment and lack of experienced troops the British High Command were counting on pluck and terrain (specifically the anti-tank obstacle which is Romney Marsh amongst others) to hold off the German advance.   

So in answer to your questions
Would Operation Sealion ever have been successful for the Germans? 
Yes.  But only if the planning right.  They had an army with the confidence brought on by so many victories. The one real problem they had was the ad hoc nature of their sea transport.  If that could have been overcome and they got that army landed and captured a port, it would have been very hard to kick them off. 

What would have to have happened for them to do so?
The most important thing was to gain air superiority.  Defeat the Royal Navy through air power and U-Boats.  Do it early enough so that the British Army didn't have enough time to rearm and reorganize. And when the army lands, quickly capture a port so that supplies can get in (and, indeed, an airfield or two).

Of course the famous Sandhurst wargame in the 1970's concluded the Germans had no chance, but did they?
The Sandhurst Wargame assumed that the Luftwaffe had not gained air superiority, which was odd.  Because that was one of the things that Hitler wanted before landing would take place. Hence the reason for the 'Battle of Britain'.
If air superiority was gained then it would have negated the danger the Royal Navy was to the beach heads.

Where it goes from there is anyone's guess.  As long as the Germans were contained in the South East I don't think we would have just collapsed, but we would have to have some luck, like an attack on Russia or the US having a change of heart.

[Hertsblue]

OK...stop rambling...so, i thought i'd therefore ask the age old wargamer question...


Would Operation Sealion ever have been successful for the Germans? 

What would have to have happened for them to do so?

Of course the famous Sandhurst wargame in the 1970's concluded the Germans had no chance, but did they?

Actually, Luddite, we are relying on you to tell us. Just remember - they don't like it up 'em!

[Squirrel]

I agree with Squirrel (not something I ever thought I would have to say )

Cheers,

Kev

[Luddite]

Actually, Luddite, we are relying on you to tell us. Just remember - they don't like it up 'em!

Hehe...i'll keep you informed.

The initial landings went almost unhindered for the Germans, with most of the initiial beach assaults coming in without too much trouble.  they only struggled on one beach and lost a couple of battalions before camping on the sands when the second wave failed and the commanders called off the third wave.

The one air landing so far, took a royal pounding but did successfully capture the Hawkinge airfield after a few hours of hard fighting.

We're still in the set of battles surrounding the initial 'beach' phase though so its anybody's guess as to how it'll pan out. 

I'm commanding the British and confusion reigns at the moment...we're desperate to get the communications into GHQ so we can plan how to react.  There's already a difference of opinion over the basic strategy - mirroring the historical reality of the differences the Germans had about how to react to D-Day!  Jolly fun.

Had we not forgot to bring a camera at the first games, there might have been some pictures to post up.  I believe there were a few mobiles snapping away but i've not see the restuls yet.

That said, our member BrotherCrow did a bloody Sterling job painting up masses of Pendraken minis in about a week to get things on the table.  I'm sure a few of the infantry were still wet!   

[Pruneau]

I think Hitler made enough mistakes, that it could have been very different had he not.  I'm not so familiar with the British beaches, would the Germans have a lot of choice where to initiate the landing?  Had Hitler focused on the West, he would definitely have had the manpower to pull it off.  Good troops, with a year of victories up their belt, that could have gotten nasty.

As far as landing crafts are concerned, in 1940 Germany would have been able to crank up the production, after all the Americans had to as well in 1943, they had nowhere near enough landing crafts before Higgins' contribution.

[Squirrel]

For anyone interested in 'Operation Sealion' the book "Invasion - German Invasion of England July 1940" by Kenneth Macksey is a great read. I really must dig it out and read it again.

Cheers,

Kev

[freddy326]

I wonder if this will end up anything like the discussion on the FOW website!! 

This is one campaign that I have always wanted a go at....but to throw some fuel on the fire...so to speak...!(or fougasse to be more topical)

I think the biggest problem that the germans would have had (apart from the lack of air superiority, the Royal Navy sinking the barges and just about everything that could fly being thrown at them!) is the logistical nightmare of the simply getting the troops and supplies ashore in the first place.

I read somewhere that the Germans intended to requisition just about all the river barges, which would have caused major problems in production and distibution.

Didn't the Germans lose over a lot of transport aircraft in Holland as wel, I've seen numbers up to 280 JU-52s lostl

If the facts get tweaked a bit then of course the Germans could have invaded and won, but as things were in 1940 they couldn't have in June/July and by September the British had made up the losses in equipment!

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

There have been many similar conversations over at the FOW forum, which I have roundly ignored due to some of the people in those conversations not having a clue...

Part of the problem (that everyone ignores) for the germans was their lack of navel/naval support! Their fleet didn't have anything bigger than the Scharnhorst/Grishneau(sic) class, and these, plus a large proportion of the destroyer fleet had taken damage in and around Narvik,and were out of operation for six months udergoing repairs.  Meaning that unless the Luftwaffe could deal with the Royal Navy (and Scarpa had more AA than anywhere else in Britain, apart from the aluminium plant in Fort William and London), they were in trouble. Scarpa was only 12 hours steaming away from any invasion site, if the fleet had got involved it would have chewed lumps out of any transports the Germans had...
my Gradad always said he was looking forwards to that, but it never happened!

[OldenBUA]

Didn't the Germans lose over a lot of transport aircraft in Holland as wel, I've seen numbers up to 280 JU-52s lostl

That's right, they did lose a lot of transport, it's 280 lost on a total of 430 used! It was a major setback, and they never made good these losses in the entire war.

[Squirrel]

There have been many similar conversations over at the FOW forum, which I have roundly ignored due to some of the people in those conversations not having a clue...

Very wise!! That turned into a rant by people who took themselves far too seriously, and just didn't understand that the point of 'what ifs?' is to have a bit of fun 

Of course the Germans had nothing to take on the Royal Navy, but if the British fleet had tried to enter a hostile English Channel, then small atack craft and the Luftwaffa would have been a problem.

The key was that the Germans needed to act imediately after Dunkirk, whist England was at it's weakest, and the Jerries were strong and confident.

Cheers,

Kev

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Kev in 1940 the Lufftwaffe couldn't sink heavilly armoured ships, as they  lacked the armour pericing bombs.

IanS

[OldenBUA]

Kev in 1940 the Lufftwaffe couldn't sink heavilly armoured ships, as they  lacked the armour pericing bombs.

Were there any squadrons equipped with/trained for torpedo bombing? I think some of the bomber types could operate in this role?

[Squirrel]

Kev in 1940 the Lufftwaffe couldn't sink heavilly armoured ships, as they  lacked the armour pericing bombs.

IanS

True  (and I may be talking out of me a**e as naval warfare isn't my strong point) but would they have needed to? As long as the Luftwaffe could take out destroyers, the big british ships would have been sitting ducks for u-boats and torpedo boats in the confines of the channel.

As I recall, the British fleets never operated inthe channel until the allies had full air superiority later in the war for that reason?

Happy to be told otherwise by someone with beter knowledge than me though!

Cheers,

Kev