Some questions from an Italian newbie

[Fabterp2003]

Hi ,I'm Fabio an Italian newbie. Yesterday I had  my first CWC game and some questions arised.
Q1 Can a group be ordered  with 2 different orders, for example, half units will move and the other half will fire?
Q2 Can a unit/group be ordered to:
a. MOVE and GO TO GROUND
b. DEPLOY and GO TO GROUND?
As acting player I should declare to my opponent when my troops  will GO TO GROUND, i.e. at the end of the full move or when the unit reachs the ridgeline.
Q3 Can a AFV generate smoke for itself and then move with a single order?

Best regards,
Fabio

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

hI and welcome...

[Big Insect]

Hi ,I'm Fabio an Italian newbie. Yesterday I had  my first CWC game and some questions arised.

Q1 Can a group be ordered with 2 different orders, for example, half units will move and the other half will fire?

> No. You'll need two separate orders to achieve that - and that means that the 1st group you order must successfully complete its order and be dropped before the remainder can be activated/commanded.
Remember that units do not need orders to use Opportunity fire (if the in-active player) or make an Initiative action of the active player. The sequencing of orders is therefor quite important.
You could order the entire group "to advance and fire at enemy units as they present themselves". That would be an acceptable order. However, where it gets complex is that if your units are using Rigid Tactical Doctrine, then your options are much more limited - as all units under command must be given the same order and all act upon that order (unless suppressed or KO'd).

Q2 Can a unit/group be ordered to:
a. MOVE and GO TO GROUND
b. DEPLOY and GO TO GROUND?

As acting player I should declare to my opponent when my troops will GO TO GROUND, i.e. at the end of the full move or when the unit reaches the ridgeline.

> Yes - it is good to do so. It avoids confusion. But again, do check what Tac.Doc your units are and make your orders accordingly

Q3 Can a AFV generate smoke for itself and then move with a single order?

> AFV smoke generation can occur as a Commanded action and so yes, you can order an AFV to generate smoke and move, or move and then generate smoke. If it being generated as an Initiative action then no

Best regards,
Fabio

Hi Fabio
Answers above in bold - the thing with Orders is that the rules try to encourage a speedy/quick and simple approach to this, to allow the game to flow. Overly complex orders can create issues. Check the Tac.Docs of your army carefully and that should help guide you.

I hope that is helpful?
Cheers
Mark

[Fabterp2003]

Hi Mark, thanks for the clear answers.
My only doubt is about the Q1, the paragraph ACTION says "A unit may carry out an action or combined actions when issued an order and this is carried out immediately. When issuing orders to more than one unit at a time, the units may carry out the same action or each unit may carry out a different action. You may choose the sequence in which the actions are carried out. Troops and transport are treated as a single unit whilst the troops are in the transport, but as separate units when the troops dismount".
As the rule is written, it sounds a formation can be ordered, by a single order, to carry out different actions in between its units.
I understand that issuing a order with more than a single  action could be stressfull for a rigid TacDoc army!
 Am I missing something?

Best regards,
Fabio

[Ithoriel]

The group I was part of certainly always played that you can order a group to do different things but they get +1 to the order die roll if they all do the same thing.

Were we doing it wrong?

I think at this point, if we ever managed to scramble another game together, we'd decide it wasn't a mistake it was a house rule, tbh.

[Big Insect]

Hi Mark, thanks for the clear answers.
My only doubt is about the Q1, the paragraph ACTION says "A unit may carry out an action or combined actions when issued an order and this is carried out immediately. When issuing orders to more than one unit at a time, the units may carry out the same action or each unit may carry out a different action. You may choose the sequence in which the actions are carried out. Troops and transport are treated as a single unit whilst the troops are in the transport, but as separate units when the troops dismount".
As the rule is written, it sounds a formation can be ordered, by a single order, to carry out different actions in between its units.
I understand that issuing a order with more than a single  action could be stressfull for a rigid TacDoc army!
 Am I missing something?

Best regards,
Fabio

Hi Fabio - ah - thank you for the clarification, apologies I had assumed you were talking about units with a Rigid Tac.Doc. Where to get the +1 bonus to your Command roll for your units you need to give them all exactly the same order - e.g. all move, or all move and fire, or fire and move or all fire etc.etc.etc.

Otherwise, yes, you can give the different parts (or individual units) of an order group different orders - so unit A, B & C fire and D,E & F move forwards and go-to ground, G,H & I move to rear - that is fine.
But you'll not get the +1 for Rigid Tac.Doc if you do that. But there is no general restriction as to what you order a order group to do.

Cheers
Mark

[Big Insect]

The group I was part of certainly always played that you can order a group to do different things but they get +1 to the order die roll if they all do the same thing.

Were we doing it wrong?

I think at this point, if we ever managed to scramble another game together, we'd decide it wasn't a mistake it was a house rule, tbh.

I think that is probably a 'House Rule' - as you only get a +1 if your army is operating using Rigid Tactical Doctrine (usually restricted to Soviet/Communist type forces - and other more conscript orientated lists) if all units in an order group are ordered to do the same actions. This is balanced by the shorter command distance range for Rigid formations.

Cheers
Mark

[Ithoriel]

I think that is probably a 'House Rule' - as you only get a +1 if your army is operating using Rigid Tactical Doctrine (usually restricted to Soviet/Communist type forces - and other more conscript orientated lists) if all units in an order group are ordered to do the same actions. This is balanced by the shorter command distance range for Rigid formations.

Cheers
Mark

That would explain it, despite only having Germans painted I latterly ended up playing the Russians because everyone else wanted to be the Germans and I was happy as either.

[Fabterp2003]

Hi Fabio - ah - thank you for the clarification, apologies I had assumed you were talking about units with a Rigid Tac.Doc. Where to get the +1 bonus to your Command roll for your units you need to give them all exactly the same order - e.g. all move, or all move and fire, or fire and move or all fire etc.etc.etc.

Otherwise, yes, you can give the different parts (or individual units) of an order group different orders - so unit A, B & C fire and D,E & F move forwards and go-to ground, G,H & I move to rear - that is fine.
But you'll not get the +1 for Rigid Tac.Doc if you do that. But there is no general restriction as to what you order a order group to do.

Cheers
Mark

Thanks Mark, your answer is cristall clear!

Fabio

[Dr.Zombie]

Q3 Can a AFV generate smoke for itself and then move with a single order?

> AFV smoke generation can occur as a Commanded action and so yes, you can order an AFV to generate smoke and move, or move and then generate smoke. If it being generated as an Initiative action then no

I a AFV generates smoke and then moves, would the smoke remain in place or move with the AFV?

[Big Insect]

I a AFV generates smoke and then moves, would the smoke remain in place or move with the AFV?

It stays in place for that game turn and then dissipates.
For game-play purposes an AFV must be stationary to benefit from its own 'Smoke' dispensers.

Cheers
Mark

[Fabterp2003]

It stays in place for that game turn and then dissipates.
For game-play purposes an AFV must be stationary to benefit from its own 'Smoke' dispensers.

Cheers
Mark

Hi,
my idea of using AFV smoke is to replicate US Army tactic.
I'm defending in a AFV pit, I'll engage the Soviet tanks up to the Minimum Engage Distance, at that point I'll generate smoke and move backwards to the next defence  line. The AFV smoke  will stay in place and should protect my redeploy.
How does it sound?

Cheers,
Fabio

[Big Insect]

Sure thing.
As long as you remain out of LoS from any enemy that can shoot at you that works ok, but it will only work against the Soviet tank directly in front of you, as other enemy units will spot you the moment you depart the smoke.
See example below (A = US MBT, S = Soviet MBTs)
Turn 1
      A
     xxx

S2---S1---S3

A has fired on S1 and generated smoke (xxx)

Turn 2
      A



     xxx

S2---S1---S3

A has now moved back from Smoke but has immediately become visible to S2 & S3 which can (immediately) use Opportunity Fire at A (as long as they are within range). S1 is still out of LoS of A as the smoke (xxx) is still in place, so it cannot use Opportunity Fire.

The big advantage the US MBT has is its range and hitting power. As you are in an AFV pit you are already a tough target for the Soviet MBTs to hit, once they are at their tactical fire range, but before that you are invulnerable to them (as they cannot hit you). Getting off as many shots as possible against them would be to your advantage, and then either generate smoke & remain static in your AFV pit or retire to the next line of defenses.

But your Soviet opponent doesn't only have MBTs - long range ATGWs positioned behind the Soviet tank line can easily engage the US MBT. As can Soviet artillery.  In fact, if the Soviet Commander is 'wise' and follows Soviet tactical doctrine, he'll be hitting your tank position with HE from his artillery and ATGWs, then he'll drop his own smoke on you from his mortar teams, as his MBTs advance to with their own tank gun range. The mortar smoke will blind the US MBT and stop it using its longer range and more powerful gun to take out the Soviet MBTs, in its turn.
The following (US) turn the mortar smoke clears and now 3 Soviet MBTs have an Opportunity Fire shot at the US MBT (if it fires), or the US MBT can generate smoke as an Initiative action or shoot at the Soviet MBTs. The moment the US MBT shoots, all 3 of the Soviet MBTs can now use Opportunity Fire in an attempt to KO or suppress it.

Remember ... CWC is a combined arms game - positioning your units to make the best use of their individual capabilities is important. The use of close support artillery and mortars and the longer range of ATGW dedicated units (positioned towards the rear of your deployment) are critical in both attack and defense.

But well worth a try 
Cheers
Mark

[Fabterp2003]

Sure thing.
As long as you remain out of LoS from any enemy that can shoot at you that works ok, but it will only work against the Soviet tank directly in front of you, as other enemy units will spot you the moment you depart the smoke.
See example below (A = US MBT, S = Soviet MBTs)
Turn 1
      A
    xxx

S2---S1---S3

A has fired on S1 and generated smoke (xxx)

Turn 2
      A



    xxx

S2---S1---S3

A has now moved back from Smoke but has immediately become visible to S2 & S3 which can (immediately) use Opportunity Fire at A (as long as they are within range). S1 is still out of LoS of A as the smoke (xxx) is still in place, so it cannot use Opportunity Fire.

The big advantage the US MBT has is its range and hitting power. As you are in an AFV pit you are already a tough target for the Soviet MBTs to hit, once they are at their tactical fire range, but before that you are invulnerable to them (as they cannot hit you). Getting off as many shots as possible against them would be to your advantage, and then either generate smoke & remain static in your AFV pit or retire to the next line of defenses.

But your Soviet opponent doesn't only have MBTs - long range ATGWs positioned behind the Soviet tank line can easily engage the US MBT. As can Soviet artillery.  In fact, if the Soviet Commander is 'wise' and follows Soviet tactical doctrine, he'll be hitting your tank position with HE from his artillery and ATGWs, then he'll drop his own smoke on you from his mortar teams, as his MBTs advance to with their own tank gun range. The mortar smoke will blind the US MBT and stop it using its longer range and more powerful gun to take out the Soviet MBTs, in its turn.
The following (US) turn the mortar smoke clears and now 3 Soviet MBTs have an Opportunity Fire shot at the US MBT (if it fires), or the US MBT can generate smoke as an Initiative action or shoot at the Soviet MBTs. The moment the US MBT shoots, all 3 of the Soviet MBTs can now use Opportunity Fire in an attempt to KO or suppress it.

Remember ... CWC is a combined arms game - positioning your units to make the best use of their individual capabilities is important. The use of close support artillery and mortars and the longer range of ATGW dedicated units (positioned towards the rear of your deployment) are critical in both attack and defense.

But well worth a try 
Cheers
Mark

Hi Mark, I truly appreciate your answer, tactically sound as Soviet commander 
However, more questions arise about smoke and obscurant.
It looks like there is a bit of inconsistency in the rules.
At page 15 is written: OBSCURANTS (INCLUDING SMOKE SCREENS)
There is no LOS into or inside a smoke screen, chemical Obscurants or chemical weapon gas clouds, unless units are using IR sights. Troops  must be on the boundary of the screen to see out or be seen.
Then at page 69 Night Fighting says: Additionally, SL and IR will be blocked by smoke screens, whereas TI is not affected.
Are the use of TI and IR  limited to Night Fighting only?
It sounds, in daylight IR can see through smoke screen and at night it cannot while TI in daylight cannot see through the smoke screen but it can only during night time.
Is this ruling intended as I'm missing some tactical constrains?

Fabio
 

[Big Insect]

Short Answer: From a rules perspective that looks as if it might be a bit of Errata, as IR cannot penetrate Smoke/Obscurants in daylight or at night. Whereas TI can see through Smoke/Obscurants at night and day.

Long Answer: The way Infra-red vision equipment works is that it detects light in the IR spectrum which can't be seen by the human eye. This requires use of an IR source which is usually an IR spotlight or searchlight. This works the same at night as a normal white light does, with the searchlight beam moved to spot something and watched by IR sensor equipped friendly personnel. Anyone looking using only normal eyesight won't see a thing. So IR is classified as an 'active' system - as it has to project a beam of IR light.
Hence we see some MBTs with large IR searchlights that they use for this purpose. The IR light is reflected back from an object and that is how it is acquired/seen by the IR sight.

However, in the 'real world', it all depends on what wavelength of IR is being used and the density of the smoke particles. The thermal IR band wavelength, at about 12 microns, is larger than most particulates in ordinary wood smoke but if the fire is sufficiently intense or is burning something like oil or car tires (for example), we sometimes see a 'haze' around it. That may be from a very high number of particles or that many are large and may still be burning. The larger particles will blur the target or obscure the target from the IR source completely.

As Smoke/Obscurants are an aerosol made up of particles, not a gas, the particle sizes in most man made Smoke/Obscurants are large enough to totally mask Infrared. So an IR targeting system cannot see through man-made Smoke/Obscurants, either at night or in daylight.
How all the above might work as regards 'dirty' smoke generated from AFV engines (as was standard Soviet Cold War design) I have to admit I am unsure. As it was primarily fuel injected into the exhaust systems that caught fire and generated a black smoke (worth knowing that for modelling or game-play purposes), whether this 'smoke' had large enough particles to block IR light I am unsure about (?). However, for the ease of gameplay all AFV that can generate Smoke/Obscurants (via projectors, grenades or fuel injection etc.) are treated in the same way.

NB: The only problem with IR night vision is anyone with a device that does see in the IR spectrum can see also your IR searchlight beam. But this is a complexity too far for the rules.

Then there is Thermal Imaging (TI) which also sees in the IR spectrum but uses a different wavelength. That IR spectrum is heat. The sensor detects heat which is given off by anything hot. People, internal combustion engines, a muzzle flash, hot gun barrels and anything those heat sources warm up. The sensors detect the difference in heat between say, an AFV and the air. This shows up in the thermal sensor screen as differences in the heat projected onto the screen with warmer objects lighter than colder objects. Or the opposite as you can switch between light or dark projection of the hot objects. You can spot hot objects like a lit cigarette or match from a long distance, just like you can see those objects thermal projection in the normal vision spectrum. You can also spot the outline of even of a single human being's heat against the colder air from a long way. Something like a tank, whose engine heats it and whose exhaust projects from the engine, can be seen in absolute darkness up to 4000–5000 meters and coupled with sufficient magnification can be identified. An enemy position dug into a valley floor stands out from the heat generated by the crew and troops' bodies and the still warm metal of any vehicle in both the dark and in daylight. Thermal imaging works just fine in daylight as long as there is a difference in temperature in objects heated by the sun and internal heat sources and their background. This means a tank with thermal imaging can see hidden enemy forces through brush and even inside of buildings and through most man-made Smoke/Obscurants (unless the smoke is also much hotter than the object behind it). To hide either the heat has to be dispersed or the object cooled to match its surroundings. Otherwise, a hot object stands out starkly from its background seen by a thermal viewer. Hence we have seen the addition of rubber mats to some MBTs in the Balkan War, Syria and now Ukraine as an improvised way of hiding the tanks heat signature.

Unlike IR, as TI is classified as a 'passive' system, as it works by detecting the targets own reflected heat, no source is required, so units using TI are not vulnerable to being spotted using enemy TI sights, but they themselves will also generate heat and so will be visible to enemy using TI sights.
But TI can see through Smoke and Obscurants in both daylight and at night in the rules.

I'll check the wording regarding IR & Smoke/Obscurants at night and add it to the errata list.
Thanks
Mark