Mortars firing smoke

[Andrew T]

We're playing a game this weekend and the question of mortars firing smoke has come up. How does this work? Mortars fire directly so there's no roll for deviation. Mortars can also fire more than once so could they fire repeated smoke shells in one turn? Also, how much smoke do they generate? Do they use the same 10cm radius template as artillery? We've decided for this game that they can only fire smoke once per turn and it creates a smoke template of 5cm radius.

[Big Insect]

We're playing a game this weekend and the question of mortars firing smoke has come up. How does this work? Mortars fire directly so there's no roll for deviation. Mortars can also fire more than once so could they fire repeated smoke shells in one turn? Also, how much smoke do they generate? Do they use the same 10cm radius template as artillery? We've decided for this game that they can only fire smoke once per turn and it creates a smoke template of 5cm radius.

Simple answer Andrew - there is no deviation for direct on-table shooting and no templates are used (for on-table shooting). So Smoke is represented by a blob of cotton wool - large enough to cover the target unit. If the target enemy unit is hit it is then considered 'smoked'.
NB: This is same if the vehicle generates its own Smoke as cover. If the vehicle moves it is considered to have moved out of the Smoke, which disperses immediately.
Mortars can fire as many times in a turn as they are successfully Commanded to do so.
Remember, the way the rules are written it is not a single mortar but a group of many mortars firing, and that a single enemy 'target unit' is actually a platoon of tanks or APCs etc.
Cheers
Mark

[Superscribe]

If you are using CWC2 points system to create your battlegroups, dont forget you need to buy assets for on-table smoke at 20pts per shell, the same as you pay for off-table smoke.

[Dr.Zombie]

If you are using CWC2 points system to create your battlegroups, dont forget you need to buy assets for on-table smoke at 20pts per shell, the same as you pay for off-table smoke.

I am not sure that is correct. As i read the rules and other answers here. You pay per gun and not per shell. So it is a one of price per gun for acces to that ammunition. But it would be nice to have that clarified.

[Superscribe]

Hi Dr Zombie

Rules P54 – Smoke/Obscurants - All artillery can fire smoke..... "provided smoke ammunition has been purchased"

Previous discussions I have had with Big Insect in the forum confirmed this applies to both on-table and off-table guns. Of course, you also have to pay the cost for the artillery gun itself. Each army list has a table showing max number of assets/gun that can be purchased e.g. British can buy max 2 smoke per gun, whereas Soviets can buy 3 per gun. 

I am sure Big Insect will clarify and maybe reason for limiting smoke assets, but the above is my understanding regarding use of smoke.

[Big Insect]

I am not sure that is correct. As i read the rules and other answers here. You pay per gun and not per shell. So it is a one of price per gun for access to that ammunition. But it would be nice to have that clarified.

With on-table mortars & artillery pieces you pay once to access the ammunition type that is specified in your list, for as many shots as are required. So yes, per on-table gun or mortar not per shell.
HE munitions are included as standard in all on-table mortars & artillery (unless specified otherwise)*.

For off-table Mortars and Artillery (including MRL/RLs and Naval Support) however, you pay the points cost for the munition type, as outlined in the asset table in you list, and can only buy the number of 'shots' of that type of munition available (so Smoke will cost 20pts and if your list limits you to Smoke x 2 you have in effect 2 off-table Smoke actions).
However, if you have a single off-table artillery unit firing a particular munition type it will cost as much as if it is an off-table concentration or a barrage. This is to keep things simple and again to encourage players to use their artillery in a historically correct manner.

So, if your army is limited to 2 x Smoke Artillery Assets (& you have bought both) - you can fire Smoke with a single off-table gun once or twice, or 2 guns at separate targets once, or any number of guns in a concentration or barrage twice. Note: you cannot mix mortars and guns/MRLs or Naval Support in the same barrage, but can mix different calibers of artillery in the same barrage. Also note - that firing more Smoke assets at the same target does not increase the size or density of the Smoke delivered.

*in the up-coming Rules Errata/Corrections, Smoke will be added as a 'free' munition type to on-table units, alongside their HE. This follows a number of suggests and requests from players that buying Smoke (for on-table units) was hindering its historical tactical use. Which I can understand and that was not the intention. However, other on-table munitions will remain as they are - so must be purchased but are limited to a specific number of units.

I hope that clarifies things?
Mark

[sultanbev]

So Smoke is represented by a blob of cotton wool - large enough to cover the target unit.

This is a gross injustice to mortars. Historically mortars have a bigger smoke screen area for a given calibre compared to guns, hence in WW2 for example there were chemical mortar units in British, US and German armies at first (which had in effect unlimited smoke ammunition) - they had to find a use for them as no one was chucking mustard gas about. But there were no chemical gun units in any army.

There is the anecdote of a US 4.2" chemical mortar battalion deployed in Operation Dragoon, I think it was. They were about to be pulled back out of line, so rather than cart all their marker smoke ammo back with them, they fired off the lot, and the surrounding hills were covered in orange smoke!

Whilst by the early 1950s the chemical mortar battalions had gone, the actual weapons hadn't, and I don't think anything else has changed much. A battery of 4-6 x4.2"/120mm mortars should be capable of laying the best smokescreens on the battlefield in any rules set.

A "blob of cotton wool" would indicate an individual smoke bomb fired, rather than a whole battery of 4-6 tubes firing a barrage of smoke bombs.

As for the amount of smoke ammunition per battery, it tends to be about 10-20% of stowage, for those weapons that had smoke available. In my own rules I allow all mortar and artillery units to fire smoke 3 times in a game, compared to 8-12 salvos of HE, with dedicated chemical mortar units having as much as they want. 

I do have some data in my files somewhere - I did have a search some years ago, finding out about smoke screen areas of effect was difficult, there wasn't much out there. I compared 8 rules set with what data I could find, and it was clear no one else really knew for sure either.

[Superscribe]

Thanks for the clarification Mark regarding on-table guns/mortars and what will be added to the rules update.
I am sure the debate will continue.......

[Big Insect]

This is a gross injustice to mortars. Historically mortars have a bigger smoke screen area for a given calibre compared to guns, hence in WW2 for example there were chemical mortar units in British, US and German armies at first (which had in effect unlimited smoke ammunition) - they had to find a use for them as no one was chucking mustard gas about. But there were no chemical gun units in any army.

> Larger Caliber Mortars (over 100mm) are mostly in the off-table ART section of the lists - so this allows them to fire templated Smoke or Chemical munitions - so no injustice at all.

> on-table mortars (mostly 100mm or below) are firing directly at their on-table targets and a basic principle of the rules is that there are no templated weapons firing on-table. So if you want your on-table mortars firing templated smoke then just field them off-table. There is no prohibition that on-table ART (including ART:MO) cannot be bought and fielded off-table.

So ... the 'injustice' doesn't exist.
NB: it has ever been thus - back in CWC v.1 - so no change in CWC II.
Thanks
Mark


There is the anecdote of a US 4.2" chemical mortar battalion deployed in Operation Dragoon, I think it was. They were about to be pulled back out of line, so rather than cart all their marker smoke ammo back with them, they fired off the lot, and the surrounding hills were covered in orange smoke!

Whilst by the early 1950s the chemical mortar battalions had gone, the actual weapons hadn't, and I don't think anything else has changed much. A battery of 4-6 x4.2"/120mm mortars should be capable of laying the best smokescreens on the battlefield in any rules set.

A "blob of cotton wool" would indicate an individual smoke bomb fired, rather than a whole battery of 4-6 tubes firing a barrage of smoke bombs.

As for the amount of smoke ammunition per battery, it tends to be about 10-20% of stowage, for those weapons that had smoke available. In my own rules I allow all mortar and artillery units to fire smoke 3 times in a game, compared to 8-12 salvos of HE, with dedicated chemical mortar units having as much as they want. 

I do have some data in my files somewhere - I did have a search some years ago, finding out about smoke screen areas of effect was difficult, there wasn't much out there. I compared 8 rules set with what data I could find, and it was clear no one else really knew for sure either.