Magister Militum - Selling Up

[GrahamC]

Love em or loathe em Warlord Games have a strong following and whilst 'epic' uses a unique size (13.5mm) at my local club a number of people have bought into ACW and Napoleonic because it's Warlord and they provide all they need ! They weren't really historical gamers but love the scale and concept.
I've taken my 10mm AWI down and they like the scale and the game but they prefer plastic and aren't keen on doing the homework of studying the period!

[steve_holmes_11]

I think the Epic approach works when a bunch of factors align:
 * Relatively few different troop types, and similar uniforms.
 * Relatively few contenders in the war.
 * A good number of historic battles.
 * Rules that reflect the "big battle" setting.

The American Civil War seems to hit the sweet spot on all counts.
What remains to be seen is whether the offering can wean the various British and legions of American gamers away from their 28s or their Old Glory 15s.

[fsn]

Do you think close order formations are also a factor?

Would Greek hoplites be a good area for Epic? who they would fight I have not a clue - other hoplites mayhap?
The tricorn era would also seem to be suitable.

Or am I missing a point?

[flamingpig0]

Would Greek hoplites be a good area for Epic? who they would fight I have not a clue -  other hoplites mayhap

Yep, other Greeks; but also Persians, Carthaginians, Italian Hill People, Early Romans, Macedonians, Thracians. Illyrians. Also native people of Sicily, but no one seems to know much about  what they looked like.

[fsn]

Yep, other Greeks; but also Persians, Carthaginians, Italian Hill People, Early Romans, Macedonians, Thracians. Illyrians.

I was thinking that there would be a struggle to fit the criterion of relatively few different troop types, and similar uniforms, and not that there is a shortage of Hoplite enemies.    

Pendraken do 15 different troop types in the Persian range, and I think they're missing some fun ones. Macedonians and Carthaginians were a bit heterogeneous. I suppose you could get away with 5 different types in early Roman?

It is quite an interesting exercise to come up with periods that Mr Holmes criteria, and I would add "be popular".
   

[steve_holmes_11]

Do you think close order formations are also a factor?

Would Greek hoplites be a good area for Epic? who they would fight I have not a clue - other hoplites mayhap?
The tricorn era would also seem to be suitable.

Or am I missing a point?

I think Ancients and epic are a poor mix on account of the variety of troops.

Even Hoplite armies generally require some variously equipped psiloi and some light cavalry.

And few ancients gamers will be satisfied with the Greek city conference league.
They'll want Macedonians, Galatians, Persians ....  and I don't think the economics of plastics lend themselves to providing every troop type.

That's my take on the limits of Epic.


I could see Seven Years War type uniforms working well.
There are a few "special hats" like Prussian Fusilier and some light troops, but there's a very generic look for the core troops.

[steve_holmes_11]

I was thinking that there would be a struggle to fit the criterion of relatively few different troop types, and similar uniforms, and not that there is a shortage of Hoplite enemies.  

Pendraken do 15 different troop types in the Persian range, and I think they're missing some fun ones. Macedonians and Carthaginians were a bit heterogeneous. I suppose you could get away with 5 different types in early Roman?

It is quite an interesting exercise to come up with periods that Mr Holmes criteria, and I would add "be popular".
 

I'd suggest the following:
 1 Close order troops constitute the majority (Line infantry or formed lights, shock cavalry and artillery in batteries).
 2 Fairly standard look across the foot and horse (Or at least the fiction of a standard look).
 3 It helps if the war has two protagonists, or if all protagonists wear a similar cut of uniform.


Point 1: Close Order Troops suits horse and musket, and the late end of pike and shot. 
    Especially if your rules abstract skirmishers off the table.

Point 2: Implies that guardsmen and highlanders are either premium packs, ignored, or a fixed ratio of generic foot packs.
     Napoleonics with its plethora of combatants and uniforms really pushes the epic model.
     In its favour, it is popular with gamers, and Warlord have a viable ruleset.

Point 3: Might favour some of the 19th century's "Hyphen Wars".
     The marketing problem is Which? 
     Franco Prussian is probably best known, but even that is obscure forrin malarkey to the average UK customer.
     British and colonial opponents is another possibility, but the locals really require an irregular look and looser order to be convincing.

[fsn]

I think Ancients and epic are a poor mix on account of the variety of troops.

I agree

Even Hoplite armies generally require some variously equipped psiloi and some light cavalry.

Depends on the period. Early hoplite armies didn't really bother much with light troops, but my point was that hoplite armies are something of an exception that proves the rule.

I could see Seven Years War type uniforms working well.
There are a few "special hats" like Prussian Fusilier and some light troops, but there's a very generic look for the core troops.

Yes. I had the same thought for AWI or WSS - the Tricorne age.

Point 2: Implies that guardsmen and highlanders are either premium packs, ignored, or a fixed ratio of generic foot packs.

Yes. That was my thought for Hoplite armies.

Napoleonics with its plethora of combatants and uniforms really pushes the epic model.

The stuff they've made for Waterloo is quite limiting IMHO.

Point 3: Might favour some of the 19th century's "Hyphen Wars".
The marketing problem is Which?
Franco Prussian is probably best known, but even that is obscure forrin malarkey to the average UK customer.
British and colonial opponents is another possibility, but the locals really require an irregular look and looser order to be convincing.

Agreed.


What about Dark Ages? The shield wall may fit quite nicely.

[Leman]

The latest Epic range is definitely closer to 15mm than their ACW range. It was possible to supplement the ACW range with 12mm figures (indeed, I think the Kallistra ACW cavalry and atillery are far superior to the Epic offers). 10mm however is noticeably smaller. Should Epic ever venture into the mid=C19th I would have no interest whatsoever given what is available from Pendraken and a couple of others. Also, when an Epic box is released the price point is quite reasonable for what you get, but the follow up add-ons are often outrageously priced.

[steve_holmes_11]

Middle ages might be possible.
Especially if you follow the school that Saxons, "Vikings" and Franks looked fairly similar.

Games Workshop's old "Battle of Five Armies" and its re-badged Warmaster rules provide an example of what might be possible.

[Essexmark]

If you see from the welcome page I have just joined this forum and have come back to wargaming after a 30 year break. At the moment my main interest is 10mm WW2. So when researching for new figures Pendraken (obviously!)and MM were both manufacturers that became top of the list for figures. Im quite old school and prefer metal cast figures than resin 3d printed. In the end I bought from MM but only because you could buy a complete company of German Infantry (say) or a armoured infantry platoon with supporting vehicles in one ready made pack. This was ideal for me, to get some figures, paint them and then play. I appreciate Pendraken have the BKC sets but I wasn't sure if they would work for (at the moment) my planned 1 fig 1 man gaming. However saying all this the tanks etc will be Pendraken as these look better imho. So what I think I'm trying to say is that each manufacturer appealed to me, as a returner to gaming and I hope MM do continue, to help fill gaps and to provide something a tad different from Pendraken. BTW the creditor in the accounts (I haven't looked at them) sounds to me like a Director or Investor loan that is now due

[streetgang]

I placed my last order from Magister Militum. I picked up some of their early war WW1 to fill in gaps as my WW1 collection is primarily MM. Also picked up some mounted Saxon Huscarls for my Big Battle RavenFeast project. Lastly, I purchased some Middle Kingdom Egyptians and Lybians ans Nubians. I always liked the early "Biblical" period and they are the only range that I'm aware of. Pendraken are my favorite 10mm figures but Magister Militum will be missed.

Regard the Warlord Epic conversation, I could see them venturing into either Dark Ages (Vikings, Saxons and Normans) or early Imperial Romans and barbarians.  Both would lend themselves to strips and the Hail Caesar rules.

[FierceKitty]

Streetgang - check out Newline (excellent) and Lancashire; both have chariot-era ranges, so while I agree MM is going to leave a big hole in 10mm supplies, perhaps the ship isn't sinking yet for bronze age enthusiasts.

[Orcs]

The latest Epic range is definitely closer to 15mm than their ACW range. It was possible to supplement the ACW range with 12mm figures (indeed, I think the Kallistra ACW cavalry and atillery are far superior to the Epic offers). 10mm however is noticeably smaller. Should Epic ever venture into the mid=C19th I would have no interest whatsoever given what is available from Pendraken and a couple of others. Also, when an Epic box is released the price point is quite reasonable for what you get, but the follow up add-ons are often outrageously priced.

One of the guys at our club has used Peter Pig 15mm ECW cavalry any they fit perfectly.

[Leman]

Indeed, I have used both Peter Pig and Steel Fist to add extra figures. The ST and PP cuirassiers are particularly useful fo getting extra cuirassiers for the early Thirty Years War period. PP does two different cuirassier command packs, containing 2 standard bearers and 2 officers. The latter make excellent additional cuirassiers and the former can be used to produce a leading general's lifeguard of lancers.