Rule clarifications

[Superscribe]

Hi Mark

Some of this may have been covered before but it easier to just put it all down here for discussion and comment........ 

A few queries arose in a recent game where we were also using fast recce and commanders' optional rules.
 
Commanders optional rules – FACs and FAOs
 
With the Commanders optional rule, are FAOs and FACs treated in exactly the same way as the CO and HQs: i.e. treated as regular units, can move during command phase (not at the end), can be assaulted instead of overrun, can be fired at with direct fire and targeted by artillery and can undertake 1 action for each successful command throw with the usual negative factors for moving earlier in turn and for each subsequent command throw etc?
 
Recce v recce combat
Recce rules are not very clear on recce shooting.  Recce main rules on p30 say "Recce .........may initiate offensive action against other enemy recce units (as initiative or opportunity action)." However, at top of p33 under heading "Recce unit in Combat" it states "recce cannot use Opp fire"   
 
We play Recce Fast Rules and these state that recce can "shoot once at a single nominated enemy unit" and to treat this as Initiative action; but no mention of Opp Fire.   
 
We believe that when using either main recce rules or fast recce rules, recce should be able to shoot once as an initiative action against one nominated enemy unit AND use opp fire against a nominated enemy unit in the opponent's command phase. 

Limited range of recce actions
The rules state that recce can attempt to spot an enemy unit that is within 60cm and in its LOS. If successful they can carry out a recce action such as +1 to CV of nearest command unit, direct the fire of on table mortars or off table artillery etc. The same applies in Fast Recce rules, which we prefer to play.
 
It seems very strange that recce don't have some opportunity to spot an enemy unit that is in the open more than 60cm away when recce has LoS to the enemy unit, and cannot then use its recce actions to direct fire for on-table mortars, off table artillery or air strikes (via an HQ/FAO/FAC) or add +1 to an HQ.  Other units such as dedicated ATGW and tanks can target enemy units say at 100cm range with no need to spot, but recce cant even spot these enemy units!

Equally strange is that a standard unit that is within 20cm of a HQ can direct on-table mortar fire on to target say 100cm away (as long as it's in range of the mortar) but recce can't do this unless the enemy is within 60cm.
 
Evading multiple ATGW attacks
We had the case where two Soviet ATGW units were ordered to fire at an enemy armoured unit that was more than 30cm away. The rules on p50 say to roll 1D6 for each ATGW missile to try take evasive action. The missiles are in the air at the same time (as the firer has to declare all his targets in advance) so the outcome could be no evades, 1 evade or 2 evades. 
 
If they only evade 1 missile, how do you deal with the 2nd one that they failed to evade?   
Do we roll for each attack separately but treat them as simultaneous attacks not sequential?
For example one successful evasion would allow the target potentially to move up to 10cm and increase cover thus degrading one attack or move out of LoS, but the second attack would go through at full attack rate.  This would be consistent with the scale of the game and one model representing a number of vehicles.  This sounds reasonable but what if the evasive move took them out of LoS of the firers, can the 2nd attack still go through at the full rate?

Regards
Chris

[Big Insect]

Hi Chris - thoughts, clarifications and comments below in-line in-bold:

Hi Mark

Some of this may have been covered before but it easier to just put it all down here for discussion and comment........ 

A few queries arose in a recent game where we were also using fast recce and commanders' optional rules.
 
Commanders optional rules – FACs and FAOs
 
With the Commanders optional rule, are FAOs and FACs treated in exactly the same way as the CO and HQs: i.e. treated as regular units, can move during command phase (not at the end), can be assaulted instead of overrun, can be fired at with direct fire and targeted by artillery and can undertake 1 action for each successful command throw with the usual negative factors for moving earlier in turn and for each subsequent command throw etc?

> Lots of question there Chris 
I'm not quite sure which optional rule you are referring to? Sorry about that?
In a standard game, in effect FACs & FAOs are Command units in all respects, other than the fact that they can only order Air units* (in the case of FACs) and off-table Artillery units (in the case of FAOs). They can make an attempt to order units at any time in a game-turn, as long as it is before the CO attempts to make an order. They must be over-run like an HQ or a CO. They cannot be targeted for direct or indirect fire - but can be caught under templated fire, as long as they are not the intended target. They can make as many successful actions as they roll successful Command dice, and that they have assets to order, they also get the +1 for all units under Command making the same action, if they are part of a Rigid Tactical Doctrine force. *FACs being carried inside on-table helicopters can order the helicopters to enter as an Air-strike, but cannot then order them to move on-table.
 
Recce v recce combat
Recce rules are not very clear on recce shooting.  Recce main rules on p30 say "Recce .........may initiate offensive action against other enemy recce units (as initiative or opportunity action)." However, at top of p33 under heading "Recce unit in Combat" it states "recce cannot use Opp fire" 

> It needs a clarification - as Recce can fire at other Recce as an Initiative action, and as Opportunity fire - but it cannot use either against non-Recce enemy units.
 
We play Recce Fast Rules and these state that recce can "shoot once at a single nominated enemy unit" and to treat this as Initiative action; but no mention of Opp Fire. 

> that is just to make the Fast-Play Recce work faster - as Opportunity fire can tend to draw out a move. But I can see a point to standardize this, so that Recce can use Initiative & Opportunity in the Fast Play Recce rule.
 
We believe that when using either main recce rules or fast recce rules, recce should be able to shoot once as an initiative action against one nominated enemy unit AND use opp fire against a nominated enemy unit in the opponent's command phase.

> The thinking about limiting the fire from Recce units, was deliberate and is based on the fact that they are mainly lower numbers of units (in Recce formations) and are more spread out & often carried much lower amounts of ammo - so fire should be limited. Generally, Recce are not offensive troops and tended to fight each other (historically).
This was why the Recce Support unit classification were created, especially to deal with some of the larger more aggressive "recce in-force" type formations - such as the French use of heavily armed armoured car formations (for example) - or the very heavily armed Bradley Recce formations used aggressively by the US in the Second Gulf War. But Initiative fire can only occur in your turn, whilst Opportunity fire occurs in your opponents, so in reality how you play it is correct.  

Limited range of recce actions
The rules state that recce can attempt to spot an enemy unit that is within 60cm and in its LOS.
> Ah - here we do have a bit of Errata - Recce ignore LoS (unless they are Aerial Recce) - this needs to be cleared up across BKC & CWC. Terrain is irrelevant to Recce for adding the +1 to a Command units CV.

If successful they can carry out a recce action such as +1 to CV of nearest command unit, direct the fire of on table mortars or off table artillery etc. The same applies in Fast Recce rules, which we prefer to play.
 
It seems very strange that recce don't have some opportunity to spot an enemy unit that is in the open more than 60cm away when recce has LoS to the enemy unit, and cannot then use its recce actions to direct fire for on-table mortars, off table artillery or air strikes (via an HQ/FAO/FAC) or add +1 to an HQ.  Other units such as dedicated ATGW and tanks can target enemy units say at 100cm range with no need to spot, but recce cant even spot these enemy units!

> the 60cm range is a simple thing based on the fact that we only throw a single D:6 for Recce. A score of a 1 always being a fail but 60cm is the max based on the 1-6 nature of a D:6. I am aware that some players use 2 x D:6 and extend the Recce range up to 120cm - others double or treble the range (so a score of 3 on a D:6 means a successful spot up to 90cms away - for example) but making it limitless range just means you keep on needing to add more D:6 - 3 for up to 180, 4 for 240 etc. See above for the LoS issue. There are limitations on Recce units (quite severe ones) as otherwise - as was witnessed in FWC at one point - you end up with a game that is so dominated by Recce that it almost becomes a separate game within the game - although a separate all Recce game might be quite interesting.

Equally strange is that a standard unit that is within 20cm of a HQ (& has LoS to the enemy) can direct on-table mortar fire on to target say 100cm away (as long as it's in range of the mortar) but recce can't do this unless the enemy is within 60cm.

> again, it is not the Recce's primary role - the objective is for the Recce units to get up close to the enemy, add the +1 to the CV of the HQ or spot for that HQ. Most Recce formations don't do long-range spotting - they are up-front well ahead of the main army group. But, there is no distance restriction for adding the +1 to a Command units CV. That command unit could be 240cm away from the Recce, but as long as it is the nearest Command unit to the Recce it will get the +1. Likewise it is the distance from the Recce to the target when spotting that influences the ability of the Recce to spot for an HQ or CO. The game works best if Recce are upfront and close to the enemy - not held back and close to their own friendly units. But expect high casualties in your Recce units - as is probably what would happen in real life.
 
Evading multiple ATGW attacks
We had the case where two Soviet ATGW units were ordered to fire at an enemy armoured unit that was more than 30cm away. The rules on p50 say to roll 1D6 for each ATGW missile to try take evasive action. The missiles are in the air at the same time (as the firer has to declare all his targets in advance) so the outcome could be no evades, 1 evade or 2 evades. 

If they only evade 1 missile, how do you deal with the 2nd one that they failed to evade? 
Do we roll for each attack separately but treat them as simultaneous attacks not sequential?
> Yes, that is the best way to do it - so that the MBT unit (which is actually a formation of 3 or 4 vehicles being shot at by a number of ATGW rounds) will react to each firer. It can be complicated and the missiles could potentially be coming from 180 degrees of separation and the direction of each evade could be directly at odds with each other, potentially. But the ATGW player must make a decision as to which of the 2 (or more) ATGW units is firing 1st (even though all are firing in the same turn together).
Generally, the way to look at it is that the target unit will be taking evasive action once it spots a single incoming ATGW (or more usually the firing blast point). That evasive action might be driving erratically, reversing, trying to make for cover that would impede the ATGW from hitting etc. But this is not a single MBT or a single missile operator but a squadron and a platoon (potentially) so you'll need to think in the abstract here a bit.
This is where the attacker might need to use a bit of cunning. One ATGW 'shot' might drive the target MBT to head for cover (& break LoS), whilst another might drive them to look to put some distance between them and the attacking ATGW - but still leaves them exposed & in the open.
The fact that we deliberately have the mechanism built into the rules to stop 'cheery-picking' of targets, which results in all direct fire on a single target requiring to happen at once, will create some odd situations.

 
For example one successful evasion would allow the target potentially to move up to 10cm and increase cover thus degrading one attack or move out of LoS, but the second attack would go through at full attack rate.  This would be consistent with the scale of the game and one model representing a number of vehicles.  This sounds reasonable but what if the evasive move took them out of LoS of the firers, can the 2nd attack still go through at the full rate?

Regards
Chris

I hope that is helpful Chris?
Thanks
Mark
PS: I have not forgotten your kind invite to join you at a game. I am slowly recovering from my operation - it is taking longer than I anticipated (or was led to believe) but I am getting better - so will message you directly about dates etc.   

[Superscribe]

Hi Mark. Many thanks for your responses and we will read/respond.

Regarding Commanders optional rules query. We often play standard Command rules and fully understand how these work but tried and very much liked the Commanders Optional rules which we trued out recently. My query relates solely to the Commanders Optional rules found in first few paras of the General Optional Rules found here https://www.dropbox.com/s/sozoixrwflnhwhg/OptionalRulesGeneralRules.pdf?dl=0.

We prefer these to the Command Units found in the main rules and are likely to adopt these going forwards. We just need to know if these are applied to FACs and FAOs in exactly the same way, as these are not mentioned (maybe they could be added for clarification). C

[Big Insect]

Ah - yes - got you - thanks Chris

In that instance you'd still treat FAOs and FACs as you would in standard rules.
As the 'Commanders' optional rules only applies to COs and HQs. We need an Errata Clarification on that point.

The reason being that FAOs & FACs are in effect tiny 'formations' or in fact a disparate command network rather than an actual 'formation' as such. If you think of the NATO FACs in the Balkan war (for example) they were very often just a couple of guys with a scrambler-bike, radio-link or even a tablet and a laser-designator, rather than an actual unit as such (a bit like a sniper team).

Whilst it could be argued that FAOs (in particular) are often imbedded within regular infantry or mechanized units, allowing them to operate as 'Commanders' is unrealistic, as even if they ended up as the only ranking officer in a formation, the chain of command would continue to operate 'below' them, within the unit. Also, as their skills are highly specialized, their 'loss' cannot be replaced so easily from within a standard infantry unit.

Special Forces units - using the Recce Support rules - would have the skills within a formation to replace losses and continue using their inbuilt FAC/FAO capabilities. But that is a very specific exception and these units are generally few and far between, often operating far ahead of the main battle line anyway.

Interesting that you are using the Optional Rule as a preference though 

Cheers
Mark

[Big Insect]

For clarification (from an off-line question).

Command units (COs & HQs) that have an AA designation in their Notes, can only shoot using Opportunity fire (or as part of defense against enemy air-strikes).
They cannot fire at enemy ground units (unless these are grounded helicopters or grounded aircraft) and if they fire using Opportunity fire they will have a +1 penalty added to their CV rolls for orders that they issue in the next game turn (as is standard with all units that Opportunity fire).

Many thanks
Mark