Armour Penetration.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

I'm looking for thoughts on gun penetration for WWII weapons primarily.

Many people on here will know I have written several sets of rules and lists for the period so have some knowledge of the subject.

So what are the variables -
1) Range, obvious I know but in this period the ablity to hit at long range was limited by poor optical kit making aquisition difficult. There would also be balistic drop as the round whent down range and slowed down. That would be a major problem with the medium and low velocity weapons but the high velocity guns (17pdr, both 88s for example) would be less affected.

2) Target size - more a problem of spotting than hitting - but does require a morev accurate shot.

3) Target movement and bearing. Any movement will cause a problem to the firer, particularly if moving across the line of sight. Makes the target easier to see but requires the gunner to calculate what a naval vessle would call the rate (of change).

4) Aspect hit. Shot is very unlikley to hit the aspect it is facing perpendicular to it, which can cause a richocet at very accute angles.

5) Own movement. Whilst most WWII firing was done from a short halt as vehicles had no stabilisation (yes Shermans and Lees had single plane stab) so limiting engagement time.

Any thoughts on these.

[fsn]

Wow! I think books may have ben written on this subject. What you've suggested so far is about spotting and hitting, for penetration I'd add

• Armour thickness and slope. If you want to be extra detailed you could also argue about the quality of the armour. 
• Related would be where you hit. Better the rear than the mantlet
• What you are firing? Is it plain AP or something fancy?

I like to add something in for, let's call it crew efficiency. Admittedly this is just anti-French, but I do think a one man turret reduces efficiency greatly.

[Raider4]

. . . I do think a one man turret reduces efficiency greatly.

No think about it, well proven. Three man turret is most efficient. Loader loads, gunner aims & shoots, commander commands.

[steve_holmes_11]

The biggest factor for a designer to consider is the figure representation of the game.

One model, one vehicle: You can worry about precise lines of sight, angles of impact, maybe even crew casualties and partial kills.

One model, one company: The above factors have less significance. 
I'd further suggest that penetration is no longer the sole kill factor.
Smothering a formation with hits will yield some mobility, firepower and communication kills.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Should have said, I'm looking at a 1-1 game.


Some other considerations are gun wear, which will reduce both the muzzle veloicity and accuracy, and angle of impact - most penetration figures quote at 30 degrees from vertical.

[Last Hussar]

If you can somehow get your hands on the data cards from the (very old) game Panzer by Yaquinto, it has data cards for vehicles on the Eastern front. Each card has the game penetration by range - 20 or so bands! - and armour values for each 30' or so.

I'll see if I can find mine and contact you if I remember.

[Gwydion]

Ian, I'd recommend having a look at John Salt's thoughts on armour penetration values here:
https://www.thewargameswebsite.com/forums/topic/russian-armour-penetration-figures/
Russian as advertised but there are some US guns as well.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Ian, I'd recommend having a look at John Salt's thoughts on armour penetration values here:
https://www.thewargameswebsite.com/forums/topic/russian-armour-penetration-figures/
Russian as advertised but there are some US guns as well.

I do have a copy of "Fire and Movement" from Bovy (OOP for 30?Yrs), and several other sources, but will take a look.

[Heedless Horseman]

Back in 70s, I used to solo game with Micro Armour. I liked the WRG rules, then current, for, then, Modern and WW2.
Rules were mainly for armour... Inf were a bit pathetic!
For actions involving inf, I went for 1/76, using a cheap little rule book... no idea who by.

[Last Hussar]

Some years ago I found a website that had stats on just about every armoured vehicle in WW2, armour, gun, gun penetrative, the lot. Buggered if I can find it now.

[dylan]

I think this chap has done a lot of good work:
http://www.panzer-war.com/index.html