Soviet Command

[Neilcburt]

Been playing for a while and am finding the soviet command values very limiting for offensive actions, essentially stalling, especially as we use the optional command targeting. We are thinking of giving the soviet/rigid command multiple bound orders, ie an Advance to a point of interest, the order once activated would remain each turn and you use the lower command values to reflect poorer reaction abilities. thoughts, or am I missing something?

[Superscribe]

I am sure Mark will respond but if you use your recce to give +1 to a command unit and/or use the Rigid Doctrine +1 for units all doing the same thing, then you can match the CV of most western command units.
Rgds
Chris

[Gwydion]

Sounds perhaps a more accurate and prescient simulation than we may have once thought!

[flamingpig0]

Sounds perhaps a more accurate and prescient simulation than we may have once thought!

I dread to think what the command values of a Putinesque army would be

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

I dread to think what the command values of a Putinesque army would be

7s and 6s probably

[Big Insect]

I am sure Mark will respond but if you use your recce to give +1 to a command unit and/or use the Rigid Doctrine +1 for units all doing the same thing, then you can match the CV of most western command units.
Rgds
Chris

I agree with Chris on all points. If you bolster your Soviet commanders with Recce +1's and give all units under command the same orders you are in effect already up to NATO command levels.
That also applies to the CV of FAOs and FACs.
The command values do appear to reflect reality as well, as we are finding out.
However, ultimately it is your own choice - if you wish to buy a more seasoned or competent commander - maybe leading a specific formation or one with more experience etc. such as a Spetsnaz formation (for example)- then that is up to you. You just need to pay the increased points accordingly. Ultimately the army lists are a guide first and foremost.

Cheers
Mark

[Neilcburt]

Thankyou, I missed the rigid +1 option, will play and reassess.

[John Cook]

I dread to think what the command values of a Putinesque army would be

About the same as the Cold War era Soviet Army.  Appallingly bad.

[Big Insect]

About the same as the Cold War era Soviet Army.  Appallingly bad.

I was discussing this with a fellow gamer only yesterday.
What are the key factors that makes such a difference in combat?
One thing we came up with was around how the forces are trained and against whom (NB: there are lots of others of course - in Ukraine motivation is a huge differentiator of course).

NATO units train against each other and often with very different equipment and fighting styles. The RAF (for example) had trained extensively against the French Airforce (flying Mirages) for many years ahead of the Falklands. These 'wargames' were highly competitive and the Harrier pilots had perfected a series of maneuvers and tactics to counter the much faster & more heavily armed Mirages (such as 'viffing'for example).
When the Falkland war erupted, the RAF pilots were faced with the same Mirages & Skyhawks they had practiced against in NATO wargames (v the French and US). However, the Argentine pilots - who were very good and some had even been trained by the US & UK - had only really played wargames against each other. As such they were flying 'to the manual' rather than from their own personal experience.

I'd suggest that this is one of the challenges faced by Soviet bloc style armies. They mostly train against each other (as NATO does) but without the national variations. Even if they try and replicate a NATO enemy in their own wargames, they don't have the right psychology to make it effective or to demonstrate differentiation.

This is just a theory of course, but I have experienced this in my own gaming. I have played for years with a group of local friends. I do OK - win some/lose some. Then I started competing in national and international competitions and it was a shock - I lost almost all my games (& still do!). These other players just played (using the same rules as I was) very differently. They used tactics my local group had not even dreamt of. They deployed differently. They used terrain in a different manner - it was a real eye-opener.

Now it could be argued that what is going on in Ukraine is one ex-Soviet Army fighting another ex-Soviet army. But I suspect that the difference (leaving aside the fact that historically 'modern' Russian armies are much better on the defensive than on the attack off home-ground) is the fact that the Ukrainians have adapted and are being trained by a series of different NATO/Western armies - so are picking up all those important 'tricksy' tactics that I am witnessing when I play in an international table-top wargames competitions 

Just a thought ....
Thanks
Mark

[sultanbev]

Now it could be argued that what is going on in Ukraine is one ex-Soviet Army fighting another ex-Soviet army.

Oh contraire, this was the big eye opener, the Ukrainains have been training using NATO tactics since 2014 at least if not before, enthusiastically.

Interviews with senior NATO commanders released since Feb 2022 showed that, back in 2009 Ukraine was considered the worst of the ex-Soviet armies. But even so, NATO "partnership for peace" and other training schemes were offered to Ukraine as well as all the other nations, and the Ukrainians took to them with alacrity, eventually becoming the most enthusiastic of the ex-Soviet/Warpac armies. But without much fanfare in the media. Such that by 2022, a large chunk of the Ukrianian army was used to NATO small-unit initiative tactics. The results of which we have since seen.

There is an interview somewhere on YT of a Lt-Col of a Canadian engineering regiment, who was one of the last pre-war trainers within Ukraine. She emphasised the point about training the Ukrainians with the NATO style low-level initiative tactics.

The other source was a newspaper/journal interview article with a very senior US commander of NATO training that was online sometime late last year.

[Big Insect]

Very interesting Mark ... nice to know that our 'arm-chair' mullings were being substantiated in practice 

And good luck to the Ukrainians - they deserve all the success they can get.