Infantry Fighting Vehicles

[Zanoni]

Hi all,

New to CWC and to the period so apologies if my query has an obvious answer! Basically it is three things about IFV's and their use (with the BMP-1 as an example as I have Russians):

1) The BMP-1 I use is 85pts, does this include an infantry unit to be carried in it?

2) Assuming it does not include the infantry (at 30pts or 20pts conscripts) do I have to buy the infantry to buy the BMP-1 making the total cost 115/105pts effectively? Or can I just have the BMP-1 without the infantry at 85pts?

3) Again assuming you do have the infantry (either included or bought extra) can the two types operate separately i.e. can the BMP-1's drop the infantry and then move/fire without them? Would they have one HQ for both the BMP-1's and the Infantry or could you have one for each to give more flexibility when operating apart?

I'm sure this is obvious to people who know a lot about the period, I'm afraid my knowledge is very limited though. I have enjoyed the games we have played so far even though the range of kit you can have is quite daunting in some ways!

Zanoni

[sultanbev]

1) the price of the infantry is separate.
2) Now that is an interesting one! I'd never have thought of fielding an IFV or APC without it's infantry, other than projecting ideas about the BMP being better as an anti-tank vehicle in real life, replace all the infantry with extra Saggers. I have no answer to the question in terms of the rules.

3) Yes, they can operate separately once the infantry are dismounted. In Afghanistan the Soviets formalised this as a tactic called the BonaGruppa or something similar, where the single mechanised company then became an infantry company and an IFV company (operating sort of as light tanks or fire support vehicles), and they would function as two separate entities under the battalion commander.

How this works in CWC in terms of HQ bases would have to be clarified by the author - I'm not sure a HQ BMP could dismount an infantry CHQ even if both were purchased prior to the game.

[Big Insect]

Hi
The cost of the BMP is just the vehicle - crew and any additional support weapon are extra.
NB: do check the free online army lists as there were a few points errors in the printed rules set & you might find that the cost may differ. The online lists and points costs are the correct ones.

In theory there is nothing to stop you buying the BMP (IFV) or any APCs without crew to go in them.
Which is fine, until you come across enemy infantry dug-in in terrain and you have nothing that can assault them. Infantry generally are cheap and can be used to hold terrain & go into terrain that an AFV/IFV cannot.
Most players use a full OOB to structure their table-top forces - in which case you'd need at least a single infantry unit per BMP to be historically correct. I put the support weapons into Reserve, with the HQ for each company - as that way they can be 'carried' separately & you don't need an extra BMP to carry them (which distorts the size of the formation). Also infantry (being cheap) are a good way to boost your army break-point.

This website has some good 1989 Soviet OOBs: https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php?title=Soviet_Union_OOB_1988

I also found this PDF most informative: https://irp.fas.org/doddir/army/fm100-2-1.pdf

With regards to how you portray a typical Soviet MRR - I usually have an HQ per 9 x BMPs. That same HQ can command both the dismounted infantry (& support weapons - in Reserve) and also the separate BMPs. 

The challenge is that if you dismount the infantry and use the BMPs as light tanks, ultimately the Command distance penalties become prohibitive. So either the infantry run out of 'steam' or the BMPs start to fail their command orders. You can always buy an additional HQ for such a purpose, specifically in Afghanistan, as they are relatively cheap for the Soviets. But I'd generally avoid too many HQs as it distorts the game and isn't really that helpful overall.
Also in Afghanistan, most Soviet BMPs did not have Saggers (ATGW) as there was no enemy armour to engage. They just used the main gun and the MGs to support the Infantry. So in many ways they were more like APCs that IFVs.

Hope that helps?
Mark

[Zanoni]

Thanks both, that's very helpful and I'll continue to buy the infantry! It also answers another question about what to do with the infantry supports and if they need their own carrier.

As someone who has only really played horse and musket and earlier periods previously CWC is a bit complex with the vast variety in units to contend with as well as how to combine them! The combining arms seems the most interesting aspect of it to me.

So far I've only used AFV's, IFV/APC and infantry (which I haven't found much of a use for really so far but then I've only played 4 games) and helicopters/aircraft which seem expensive for the effect so far (but they do look good...). Next I'll try adding some artillery I think.

Zanoni

[Big Insect]

Thanks both, that's very helpful and I'll continue to buy the infantry! It also answers another question about what to do with the infantry supports and if they need their own carrier.

As someone who has only really played horse and musket and earlier periods previously CWC is a bit complex with the vast variety in units to contend with as well as how to combine them! The combining arms seems the most interesting aspect of it to me.

So far I've only used AFV's, IFV/APC and infantry (which I haven't found much of a use for really so far but then I've only played 4 games) and helicopters/aircraft which seem expensive for the effect so far (but they do look good...). Next I'll try adding some artillery I think.

Zanoni

Hi Zanoni
The game works best as a combined operations game - so slowly adding units (such as off-table artillery or on-table mortars) is a good next step.
Aircraft are expensive and are generally not that effective (as we are seeing with their modern counterparts in the Ukraine/Russian war). Helicopters however, whilst expensive, can be game changers, but take some time to get to grips with.
One of the ways to make better use of your Infantry is to increase the amount of terrain you have on-table - especially Built Up Areas or woods etc. In an open terrain, the vehicles will dominate, it is what they are designed to do and it is how the game is designed to be played.
Hope you are enjoying the game & do keep asking questions ... some mechanisms have been around for nearly 20 years now and we 'old' players can take their ways of working for granted.
Cheers
Mark