GNW figures questions

[Fnord23]

Hi guys, not sure if this is the correct subforum but its mainly about gnw figure codes so..

Just some background first, this is my first foray into 10mm and GNW but I've been in the TT wargaming hobby 30+ years; I live in central NSW Australia (not quite the outback but definitely rural).

I'll be doing both sides for Poltava 1709, using an period extension for DBA 3, with the eventual aim as the big battle version with 36 elements per side, each element representing about 600 men, so battalions for infantry and 8 squadrons for cavalry.

I'm trying to ensure i get everything i need in one order.

I'll be using seperated generals on 40mm round bases, i need 6 of these. I'm aware Charles XII was wounded in the foot before this battle and was on a litter but I'm going to pretend this didnt happen 

I thought the mtd generals from the SYW range might be best to represent these, with 2 of the named characters from the same range to represent Charles and Peter the great, question is, which ones? I was thinking SYW3 Frederick as Charles and SYW5 Ferdi as Peter unless there are better options?

Russian dragoons: from my research, a lot of the dragoon regiments were in tricornes, would MAL11 or MAL12 work best for these?

Russian Horse Grenadiers: Any options here?

Line infantry:
40 x 20mm base, 2 lines of 5 with 2 officer/musician in front

*****
*****
 @#

Will these fit? Could i squeeze 6 into the 2 rear lines?

Cheers, Bill

PS there will probably be more questions 

[Orcs]

Hi Charlie, Welcome to the forum.

I have forces for the War of Spanish Succession. MAL and Mal 12 are virtually interchangeable with the only difference being the pose of the horse.

Unfortunately, the horse pose for the main troopers does not have matching poses with the command pack Mal 13 where the officer and the Standard-bearer are on standing horses and the trumpeter is on a galloping horse.

I have used figures from GNW and 7YW ranges to give me some variation, and just done a paint conversion.

Likewise, you may find some of the League of Augsburg figures are suitable for what you need. Just be aware that there is a very small variation in size between the LOA and Marlburian ranges, so you might not want to mix figures within units.

There are some very nice command figures in the LOA range, although these are a fraction larger than the Marlburian figures, they would be fine on their own command stands

For your General on a litter, you could use the Carriage  SYW 10 in the 7YW miscellaneous section. 

Leon, will if you ask him nicely supply extra figures to make up units, at a slightly increased figure cost, but this does allow you to finish a unit without purchasing a whole pack when you only need a few.

[fred.]

Basing wise

I don't think you will get 2 rows on infantry along with officer in front on a 20mm depth 

My WSS is based up 4 figs by 2 rows on 40mm x 20mm. I think I could have got 5 x 2 rows on the base. But couldn't have got another rank on the bases. 

6 I think would be pushing it for most of the poses, the only figs I have got 6 on a 40mm frontage are some 7YW marching figures. 

[Steve J]

Welcome on board and I look forward to seeing how your project progresses .

[OldenBUA]

Poltava, you say?

Any interest in a copy of these? Small books, kinda like Ospreys, but from Ukraine. Text all in Ukrainian, so the illustrations is what you'd want them for. I have these double, bought a second set by mistake. Price would be pretty cheap, shipping maybe a little more.

http://umka.com/eng/catalogue/militaria-ucrainica-series/sokyrko-o-ukrains-ky-rubikon-the-battle-of-poltava-in-1709-part-i-ii-2-books-ukrainian-rubi.html

[Fnord23]

Basing wise

I don't think you will get 2 rows on infantry along with officer in front on a 20mm depth

My WSS is based up 4 figs by 2 rows on 40mm x 20mm. I think I could have got 5 x 2 rows on the base. But couldn't have got another rank on the bases.

I had a horrible suspicion this might be the case
I really want to represent the historical look of the battalions, officer/musician out the front and pikes in the middle (for the swedes at least)  - one of the pikes with the company/ colonels company flags.
Do you think the two in the front would fit if the base was 40×25mm? They would have pikemen with shouldered pikes directly behind them.

[Fnord23]

Poltava, you say?

Any interest in a copy of these? Small books, kinda like Ospreys, but from Ukraine. Text all in Ukrainian, so the illustrations is what you'd want them for. I have these double, bought a second set by mistake. Price would be pretty cheap, shipping maybe a little more.

http://umka.com/eng/catalogue/militaria-ucrainica-series/sokyrko-o-ukrains-ky-rubikon-the-battle-of-poltava-in-1709-part-i-ii-2-books-ukrainian-rubi.html

I am, depending on the postage cost to Australia, no idea how much that would be these days.

Cheers, Bill.

PS was in your country 10 years ago, Herrenween was the furthest nth we went, stayed the night at Lemmer then on to Amsterdam.

[Hwiccee]

OK so on figures/units.

In general the Swedes are in SYW style uniforms, i.e. they have turnbacks, and the Russians in Marlburian style. At least in theory none should be in LOA uniforms but that is theory.....

Both sides had some infantry/cavalry units in the 'felt hat' and the GNW Russian cavalry in felt hat will be fine. Similarly both have units in tricorns. I think for cavalry you can use whatever you like, including Marlburian types, for the tricorn guys & the Russians felt guys because the only difference would be the turnbacks & you can't really see these.

The Russians also have large numbers of Cossacks & Kalmyks light horse- the Swedes also have some anddismounted Cossacks. I used the SYW Russian Cossacks & some mixed in 16th century Poles for these.

The Russian Horse Grenadiers have mitres and I used British SYW figures for this - again the turnbacks are not right but not that noticeable - I painted them as the coat colour so you can't tell at all.

On the infantry you could mix in SYW types for the Swedes but they should be chosen with care - that is if you are picky. Similarly most of the Marlburian range are fine for Russians.

Note - most Russians also had pikes. In theory 1 pike to 7 muskets in a unit, except grenadier units and probably Streltzi.


I am not sure if this is relevant but the Swedes were massively outnumbered at the battle and so having 36 elements a side will be nothing like the real battle. The exact number of units involved depends on what exactly you mean by 'the battle'. Many people talk about the final and main attack as 'the battle' and ignore the rest of this wide ranging battle.

The Swedes had 12 battalions and 109 squadrons (plus maybe a few more) in the final attack but another 8 battalions, circa 50 squadrons and their cossack allies were also around &  involved in other fighting.

The Russians had 53 battalions and 120 squadrons plus lots of Cossacks/Kalmyks & masses of artillery in the final battle. There were an additional 33 battalions and 40 squadrons in action elsewhere.

Russian units were on average larger than the Swedes and the regular Russian cavalry involved in the final attack, i.e. not all their cavalry and not including the Cossacks/Kalmyks & everything else, probably outnumbered the entire Swedish army - i.e. not just those involved in this attack but the whole army in the area.

In short it was nothing like an 'even fight' in reality.

I hope this helps.

[Fnord23]

OK so on figures/units.

In general the Swedes are in SYW style uniforms, i.e. they have turnbacks, and the Russians in Marlburian style. At least in theory none should be in LOA uniforms but that is theory.....

Both sides had some infantry/cavalry units in the 'felt hat' and the GNW Russian cavalry in felt hat will be fine. Similarly both have units in tricorns. I think for cavalry you can use whatever you like, including Marlburian types, for the tricorn guys & the Russians felt guys because the only difference would be the turnbacks & you can't really see these.

The Russians also have large numbers of Cossacks & Kalmyks light horse- the Swedes also have some anddismounted Cossacks. I used the SYW Russian Cossacks & some mixed in 16th century Poles for these.

The Russian Horse Grenadiers have mitres and I used British SYW figures for this - again the turnbacks are not right but not that noticeable - I painted them as the coat colour so you can't tell at all.

On the infantry you could mix in SYW types for the Swedes but they should be chosen with care - that is if you are picky. Similarly most of the Marlburian range are fine for Russians.

Thanks for this info, using the British horse grenadiers in particular, chopping and changing heads at this scale seems like overkill, not to mention the extra time it would take.

Note - most Russians also had pikes. In theory 1 pike to 7 muskets in a unit, except grenadier units and probably Streltzi.

The army lists from the dba extension I'm using have a special rule for swedish line infantry with their higher ratio of pikes, the russian line infantry dont have this rule, I could include 1 pike figure in each russian line element for historical accuracy but given my likely opponents will be other wargamers completely new to the period (but not to DBA rules) i am probably not going to do this.

I am not sure if this is relevant but the Swedes were massively outnumbered at the battle and so having 36 elements a side will be nothing like the real battle. The exact number of units involved depends on what exactly you mean by 'the battle'. Many people talk about the final and main attack as 'the battle' and ignore the rest of this wide ranging battle.

The Swedes had 12 battalions and 109 squadrons (plus maybe a few more) in the final attack but another 8 battalions, circa 50 squadrons and their cossack allies were also around &  involved in other fighting.

The Russians had 53 battalions and 120 squadrons plus lots of Cossacks/Kalmyks & masses of artillery in the final battle. There were an additional 33 battalions and 40 squadrons in action elsewhere.

Russian units were on average larger than the Swedes and the regular Russian cavalry involved in the final attack, i.e. not all their cavalry and not including the Cossacks/Kalmyks & everything else, probably outnumbered the entire Swedish army - i.e. not just those involved in this attack but the whole army in the area.

In short it was nothing like an 'even fight' in reality.

I hope this helps.

Oh its totally relevant, I've been researching this battle in particular, the campaign in detail and the period in general for 6 months or so, which is nothing compared to 25+ years on ww2 and late medieval (my other interests, just not in this scale); but enough to give me a background for some scenario ideas.

This website, in particular, has been awesome, in fact I'm sure you would be familiar with it.

https://www.tacitus.nu/gnw/index.htm

Anyway, this project will be divided into stages, basically dependent on how fast i can paint.

1. Standard DBA, 12 elements a side, 1hr games, competitive, introductory.

2. Double DBA, 24 elements a side, 2hr games, competitive, better visually than std DBA

3.Big battle DBA, 36 elements a side, 3 commands, 3.5hr games, competitive, visually excellent.

4.Big battle DBA, variable element numbers, 3 commands, variable game time, actual historical plus what if historical scenarios yet to be written 😀

For example at the tactical level, a chance for some or even all of Roos' 6 battalions not to be caught up in the redoubt battles.
Different outcomes for other events in the campaign such as lesnaya or the all cavalry russian harassment force being more or less successful might also affect things.

A straight up historical refight of the main battle with say 24 swedish and 40 russian elements is something i might do solo as there is virtully no chance of a swedish win with 2 competent players.

Really appreciate talking with people who've done this before, thankyou

[fred.]

I had a horrible suspicion this might be the case
I really want to represent the historical look of the battalions, officer/musician out the front and pikes in the middle (for the swedes at least)  - one of the pikes with the company/ colonels company flags.
Do you think the two in the front would fit if the base was 40×25mm? They would have pikemen with shouldered pikes directly behind them.

Which figures are you thinking of using? I can see what I have and try some arrangements on bases. 


One thing I have seen done is to put the command element on a separate small base, which can lead from the front - but then once combat start can be repositioned to the back of the unit. 

[Raider4]

One thing I have seen done is to put the command element on a separate small base, which can lead from the front - but then once combat start can be repositioned to the back of the unit.

I came across exactly this earlier this week, using a half-hexagon base for two or three 'command' figures, and was going to suggest similar.


Of course, I can't find it again now .

[Hwiccee]

The army lists from the dba extension I'm using have a special rule for swedish line infantry with their higher ratio of pikes, the russian line infantry dont have this rule, I could include 1 pike figure in each russian line element for historical accuracy but given my likely opponents will be other wargamers completely new to the period (but not to DBA rules) i am probably not going to do this.

I personally haven't used a DBA variant for this era but I did talk to someone a while ago about them doing it. I have played the original Ancients DBA and I recommended making the Swedes something like 'Warbands' (that can fire a bit) and 'Knights' but 'improved' & not impetuous and the Russians would be 'Spear' (that can fire) and 'Cavalry' & probably 'worse' in some way.
Essentially you would want the Swedes to have a lot of 'Elite' and the Russians would be 'average' & 'poor'. I am not sure what is the best way to do that in DBA as a basic assumption is that all units are equal. I think it is clear that 1 vs 1 the Swedes are still considerably better than the Russians.

Here is our take on Poltava. We have made it deliberately BIG to be impressive & to cover the whole battlefield. If we do it for real it is a lot smaller - 6 foot by 4. https://rollaone.com/2021/11/14/a-triumphant-salute-battle-of-poltava-1709/

Oh its totally relevant, I've been researching this battle in particular, the campaign in detail and the period in general for 6 months or so, which is nothing compared to 25+ years on ww2 and late medieval (my other interests, just not in this scale); but enough to give me a background for some scenario ideas.

This website, in particular, has been awesome, in fact I'm sure you would be familiar with it.

https://www.tacitus.nu/gnw/index.htm

Yes of course I know it and indeed it includes my research in to this era. It is a good site which often brings together a lot of the best research around. I wouldn't agree with all of it but then I am sure the author wouldn't agree on some of my thoughts.

Anyway, this project will be divided into stages, basically dependent on how fast i can paint.

1. Standard DBA, 12 elements a side, 1hr games, competitive, introductory.

2. Double DBA, 24 elements a side, 2hr games, competitive, better visually than std DBA

3.Big battle DBA, 36 elements a side, 3 commands, 3.5hr games, competitive, visually excellent.

4.Big battle DBA, variable element numbers, 3 commands, variable game time, actual historical plus what if historical scenarios yet to be written 😀

Sounds good. I hope you will put something online when you get it done.

For example at the tactical level, a chance for some or even all of Roos' 6 battalions not to be caught up in the redoubt battles.
Different outcomes for other events in the campaign such as lesnaya or the all cavalry russian harassment force being more or less successful might also affect things

Yes obviously Roos not getting lost and similar would help. But I am not sure it would be enough and also usually it wouldn't actually improve things a lot. For example if Roos deosn't get lost then presumably the 8 Russian battalions and 30 cavalry squadrons that chased them would still be with the main force which was where they were before. Also around half of the garrison of Poltava got involved in the action against Roos. If they hadn't done this they could have captured the Swedish camp & then it is likely that Charles XII could have been captured as well if the Swedes still lost, which would be likely.

Similarly you can tinker with the numbers at the battle but I think the Swedes best bets are to attack in daylight, possisbly with all available forces, or to follow Lewenhaupt's advice on immediate attack on the Russian camp.

If the Swedes had attacked in daylight they could have ended up fighting on better ground that would allow them to use their superior cavalry more. A systematic destruction of the small redoubts might have tempted the Russians to fight in a narrow gap where the individual superiority of the Swedes would count or the main battle might have happened nearer the Swedish camp or nearer the Russian camp - basically in areas where the Swedes could deploy & use their cavalry. This would though risk the Russians just taking the loses and tightening the noose.

The second one is what Lewenhaupt wanted to do after the Swedes got through the small redoubts. He wanted to immediately assault the corner of the Russian camp nearest the redoubts. The Russians were still half asleep but the Swedes were in a mess. It would be difficult for the Swedes to get in but once in they would be, more or less, fighting 1 unit vs 1 unit and their units were individually better. The cavalry would keep the Russians inside the the camp and so their numbers would not be so important. This is essentially what they did at Narva in 1700 but the Russian army was a lot better by this time so whether they could do it again who knows. Unfortunately the Lewenhaupt option is not likely to lead to a very good game & the daylight option would be better with a less than competent Russian player/players.

A straight up historical refight of the main battle with say 24 swedish and 40 russian elements is something i might do solo as there is virtully no chance of a swedish win with 2 competent players.

I think this is the basic problem with DBA. The Swedes were often a lot more outnumbered than this but still won & DBA style games don't cope well with this kind of situation. Unless you can put 'unit and commander quality' into the system I think you will have to do some heavy 'what if-ing' to make it a game.

You might want to go to the 1708 campaign instead. Things are a lot more even then and the Swedes have a very good chance of winning a 'what if' major battle. We did one that very nearly happened at Horka (Gorki) in 1708 - https://rollaone.com/2018/07/16/the-what-if-battle-horka-1708-at-joy-of-six-2018/

In 1708 the Swedish main army is about twice the size it was at Poltava and the Russian main army was about 1/3rd less than at the battle. This meant the Swedes were easily capable of beating the Russians and is why the Russians avoid big battles.

In any case good luck & the good news is it is a fascinating period/war.