CWC-II Army List Errata/Suggestions (Open)

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

That's different from the Soviet list.

It's coppied direct from CWC 1, I don't subscribe to the overpowered Soviet guns and saw no reason to change then current stats.

[Big Insect]

That's different from the Soviet list.

That's Ian view.

I'll be using the stats from the base-line Soviet list for the T62 etc.in the Arab list. And I'd suggest that that is the right way to approach this.

The challenge you have - if you believe the manufacturers stats on Soviet tank guns - is that they end up with longer ranges than most NATO tanks. If that was carried through to on-table stats most gamers using Soviet equipment would just sit back and shoot at NATO outside of NATO's range. Gamers being gamers.
That is however not the way that Soviet MBT tactics worked. It is all about attacking in-force.

Also, the 'reality' of these longer stats in actual combat was proven to be that the poorer quality optics and ranging, plus a general propensity for soviet trained crews to want get a lot closer to shoot it out with the enemy, means that the stats for soviet guns have been adjusted to take into account these factors. You can argue that maybe that choice should be left to individual gamers - but in that case you might as well be playing Warhammer or chess not CWC-II.

Thanks
Mark (the author)

[Big Insect]

The 'correct' stats for the T62 in the Arab States lists will be:

T-62 100pts AFV MV:25 AP:6/95 AT:5/60 4 4 -/9 1975*+ R/IR (Syria and Egypt*)

(*I'll need to double check the dates and numbers available for each country)

Thanks
Mark

[TytusDeZoo]

Hi Mark

At first CWC2 is a great system! I like it very much and army lists looking great!
But I have question about IFV's like a French VAB family, USA LAV-25's or Soviet BTR's family and all kinds of BRDM.
We have threat them like a whealed vehicles? I'm asking becouse in rules is state that all AFV's are tracked. And in lists some armored vehicles have this "whealed" adnotation and other not. How to treat them (BTR VAB and LAV)? For terrain obstacles like a whealed but without this road movment bonus?
The addnotation in army lists is not a problam becouse I know what kind of particural system have a traction but I have to know if this AFV's what have this adnotation "wheealed" have this road bonus movement and this rest what is whealed but without this adnotation don't. Also Trucks and 4x4 have this road movement bonus?
I'm looking forward for Iraqi wars Army lists.

Thank you for a great work on this lists.
Darek

[Rhys]

While I'm not sure what the rules say the LAV's of the New Zealand army are quite happy running at road speeds (~100 kph) as I see them on a regular basis on the way too and from work.

[TytusDeZoo]

  I also not sure but in the rules we have to threat them like a whealed or not?

[TytusDeZoo]

I get it Rhys! I needed a couple of minutes to get allusion English is not my native language so I faster get in english when someone speak to me plain like a for Labrador
So yes they are whelaed.
Thank you!

[Big Insect]

Hi there

If an AFV is wheeled - like a BTR-60 (for example) - it is classified as Wheeled - so gets the road move advantage and the penalties associated with wire.

The wording should say something along the lines of 'most AFVs are tracked' ... we'll get that sorted in the errata edit.

If you can identify the page that it says that one, that would be very helpful.
Thanks
Mark

[TytusDeZoo]

Hi Mark

I'm okay with that. Now I know if we have real world vehicle on wheels we treat them that they have this ability.
I suppose that trucks and 4x4 jeeps also.
Distiction in rules for APC's and IFV's is wonderfull.
Yes I saw this sentence 'most AFVs are tracked' probablly in the end of the rules in descritption and chracteristic of the paricular unit types.
Anyway great army lists!

Thank you for tremendous work on this army lists.
Darek

[Big Insect]

A pleasure Darek - I'm glad you are enjoying the lists and rules. 
Welcome to the forum and the world of Cold War Commander.
KR
Mark

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Mark the Viyjanta is missing from the Indian list. Stats are in the lists folder. It was in service from 1965 roughly. 

[Big Insect]

Mark the Viyjanta is missing from the Indian list. Stats are in the lists folder. It was in service from 1965 roughly. 

It is not missing Ian.

The Indian list is an Indo-Pakistani War list and the Vivyjanta was never used in combat with Pakistan (or deployed anywhere near the front line) despite what WIKI appears to claim (with no references).

Including it in the Indian Indo-Pakistani War list would be a bit like including a Challenger tank in the Falklands list 

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Mark you put in a very rare 1/2 track for the Isralies, and no doubt the Indians could well  have used the Vijanta as it was a substantial part of their tank fleet it should be included. Would also help with a few notes on models, Indian T54/5 had oil drums added to thier barrels for recognition purposes so could be represented by T62. The M4A3 Shermans are E2? versions with 76mm guns. These are sometimes reported as Fireflies but are re-guned 75mm versions produced post war, should be represented by Fireflies.

[kustenjaeger]

No idea of reliability of the source but page 171 of the War of the Twins by Krishna Chandra Sagar (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XM5oZYYvEmYC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=Vijayanta+tank+in+action&source=bl&ots=tFP_Hors0c&sig=ACfU3U0RoUN6M6PUCvknpfdM2B_UBBHERQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj9kOayjp75AhXOYMAKHa3KBm4Q6AF6BAg_EAM#v=onepage&q=Vijayanta%20tank%20in%20action&f=false)  refers to operational use of three squadrons of the Vijantaya in 1971 in the western theatre.

Edward

[Big Insect]

Mark you put in a very rare 1/2 track for the Isralies, and no doubt the Indians could well  have used the Vijanta as it was a substantial part of their tank fleet it should be included. Would also help with a few notes on models, Indian T54/5 had oil drums added to thier barrels for recognition purposes so could be represented by T62. The M4A3 Shermans are E2? versions with 76mm guns. These are sometimes reported as Fireflies but are re-guned 75mm versions produced post war, should be represented by Fireflies.

Where a list is for a specific historical conflict Ian, my policy is to limit the equipment (as best as possible) to what was actually known to be used (not necessarily what was available). In a more generic list, the options to use a particular vehicle is left to the players own discretion. Hence why we have a generic British list and a specific list for the Falklands conflict (for example).

The fact that the Indians had lots of Vijanta available to fight Pakistan, but chose not to use them is an interesting question as to why not? Maybe it was a 'fear' that they might be captured by the Pakistanis or that they would not perform well and so provide the Pakistanis with a propaganda coup ... who knows!

There are extensive records/memoirs of the historic Indo-Pakistani tank fighting - from both sides point of view - and neither mention the Vijanta in action, and there are no reports of any damage to Vijanta or them causing any 'kills' on Pakistani tanks either. But as the Indian Indo-Pakistani list is specific to the conflict, the Vijanta has deliberately not been included. I will at some point in the future produce a generic Indian list that will include some of the more modern Indian MBTs etc. The Vijanta can be included in that.

My aim is to provide players with sets of lists that as accurately as possible allow them to depict the forces that actually fought (in an actual historic conflict) - not what might have happened or been possible.

With the NATO v WARSAW PACT 'cold war' potential war scenario there is much more room for flexibility. Is it right to stop the Canadians from potential using the Grizzly (APC), as the published OOB for the Canadian forces in Europe did not include it? I'd argue not, as in the heat of a major Cold War conflict, if the Canadians needed the Grizzly's, they'd have been deployed. It is the same argument about much of the Soviet/WarPact/PLA 'reserve' equipment.
But a Cold War battle in Europe was a 'what-if'. Unlike the actual Indo-Pakistani wars.

The issue about 'rarity' is one that has been much debated on this very forum many times in the past - in association with BKC as well as CWC. Again, my policy is that players like to know that even if a very small number of such units were deployed (or was available to be deployed) by an army, that these at least have the stats available to be used. Should the players want to do so.

In the PLA list - for example - there is a self-propelled AA vehicle (AA, Twin 37mm Type 63 - copy of US 'Duster'+T-64/84 hull) that may be a one-off vehicle - but I've included it as it allows a player an option to use it in an appropriate scenario.

Thanks
Mark