CWC-II Army List Errata/Suggestions (Open)

[Big Insect]

Now I have the CWCII rulebook, I'm just playing catch up on all the trheads that have been generated. I'm glad to see under the Optional Rules the Static Hits option. We have used this for years in our BKCII games and find, for us, it makes for a better game.

One that that irked us with CWCI with hits coming off both sides at the end of the Turn, was that it was often really hard to KO anything during a game. As an example, in a campaign lasting  4-5 games, my British lost only one Chieftain tank (without Still brew) throughout. It didn't feel right to us. Some lucky die rolls here and there might have helped, but not to the extent of them lasting for so long.

So I'm looking forward to seeing how things play out using the Static Hits option with the new rules. First I just need to sort out my OOB and then place some orders

Hi Steve
We played a big CWC-II game up at 'The Unit' last weekend (or was it the weekend before) and I lost a load of armour, including a couple of Dutch Leopard 2s - to massed T62 fire and also to some long-distance ATGW shooting. We were playing the 'Hits come Off' rule - so I suspect if you are playing 'Hits Stay On' you'll see a lot more damage.
I 'KO'd' a number of Soviet MBTs with massed artillery shooting but my Leopards were part of an armoured recon formation - so were out and about in singles - so probably not as deadly as a proper battalion would have been.

I'll be interested to hear how you get on.
Cheers
Mark

But were also playing the '2 hits = suppressed' optional rule for off-table Artillery & Air.

[Superscribe]

Hi Mark. p93 has special ability Generate Smoke but I cant seem to find it listed in any Army List. I assume this maybe because all AFVs can use it (p15).

However does this not apply to those armoured transports and on table SP artillery that have smoke dischargers fitted, such as FV432s and the Abbott SP gun? Can you update army lists to show which vehicles can generate smoke.

Ta

Chris

[Big Insect]

Hi Mark. p93 has special ability Generate Smoke but I cant seem to find it listed in any Army List. I assume this maybe because all AFVs can use it (p15).

However does this not apply to those armoured transports and on table SP artillery that have smoke dischargers fitted, such as FV432s and the Abbott SP gun? Can you update army lists to show which vehicles can generate smoke.

Ta

Chris

To be honest Chris - that is a major job (huge piece of research) - which is why I generally went with the view that players do need to use their own research and discretion on that matter. It is a 'free' ability - and my view is that we are covering so broad a range of vehicles and time period that I hadn't the time/energy to invest in it (at present).

The challenge is not as simple as: "does this vehicle have smoke dispensers or not?", because a lot of Soviet/Communist built vehicles had the inherent ability to create a dirty black/oily smoke screen, without the need for dispensers. e.g. from the T54 onwards (maybe earlier - with upgraded T34/85s or SU-100s etc),T-54/T-55, T-62, T72, T80 etc, Communist tanks had ability to create a smoke screen by injecting diesel fuel into the exhaust system. This was copied by the Chinese, Yugoslavians, North Koreans and Vietnamese in their various 'lookilikey' AFVs as well.

Also - some vehicles had detachable smoke dispensers, so a South African Ratel IFV - could have 2x2 80mm smoke grenade dispensers attached - but often, as it was not fighting other AFV's (for most of the time) - these were not attached. But they could be attached when necessary.

As a general rule - I'd suggest that all AFVs (& that includes MBTs, IFVs, APCs and even Armoured Cars and on table armoured SP Artillery - but not half-tracks for some odd reason) in this era would normally have some sort of fixed array smoke dispensers/launchers, or be able to use the fuel-injection smoke system.

Some very early tanks that 'carried-over' from WWII (or earlier) - such as the T-26's used by Spain up to the 1950s for example - might be an exception. But Shermans - for example do have the ability to add dispensers, if required. But the lists are not really designed to be a totally comprehensive list of all vehicles and all  equipment carried. They cannot be - or they will just become far to unwieldy.

Vehicles such as Trucks and 4x4s (pre.1990) don't generally have smoke generation capabilities (although some HMMWV's can).
Motorcycles, Mules, Bicycles don't either.
Neither do a lot of Amphibious transport vehicles - such as DUKWs - although the LVT family does.
Early US armoured car variants (Whites and Greyhounds) don't generally appear have smoke dispenser, but from the Ferret onwards UK ones do.
M24 Chaffee's had a turret mounted 81mm smoke mortar during WWII, that some operators removed in post war service (like the US) whilst other retained it (but never used it).

So, I suspect that your going to need to come to a broad agreement amongst your playing group on this matter - but the general rule (particularly if you are playing c.1980s Cold War gone Hot European games) is that this ability/characteristic applies to: AFV (including all MBTs), AC, IFV, APC designated units (whether they are Armour, Transport or Recce), on-table armoured SP guns - but not to half-tracks.
And that is probably the best way to apply this, broadly.

Long answer to a short question, but I hope it helps.
Thanks
Mark
Cheers
Mark

[Superscribe]

Hi Mark. As always a very interesting and in-depth reply. Thankyou.

Yep quite a complex subject. I agree your reasoning for 1980s games and smoke capabilities of the various armoured vehicle types. Perhaps the answer is to amend the rule on p15 to something along the lines of what you said above "this ability/ characteristic applies to: AFV (including all MBTs), AC, IFV, APC designated units (whether they are Armour, Transport or Recce), on-table armoured SP guns - but not to half-tracks"

Regards

Chris

[Big Insect]

A good call Chris ... some units like Soviet bridging units based on the T55 or T62 core chasses may/may not also have had the fuel injection smoke-screen capability (likewise SPAAGs like the various ZSUs etc) as they were all based on an MBT tank chassis - but again we don't appear to know (for certain) if they used the injection capability or not.

Cheers
Mark

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Mark fairly general rules - vehicles of British and German origin have Smoke dischargers, most French vehicles likewise after 1970. US started fitting in or after 75. Isreaeli refits have them added if not already fitted. WEstern WWII tanks have smoke mortars, often replaced in refits with SD.

Soviet / Russian tanks from T44? and certainly after it are fitted with engine generators. These leave the lead vehicle exposed so I'd house rule that the 1st wave should be hit as if in cover, on a 6. Not certain on the APC's, doubt it was fitted to any wheeled ones, although the 60/70/80 got SD from roughly 1980. BMP's may have engine generators fitted. All refit/new build tanks from the early 80's add smoke generators.

See if you can get hold of the old tabletop "modern equipment handbook" it lists al the kit up to the late 90's

[Big Insect]

Thanks Ian - but my comment still stands - this is a level of detail that I am leaving to individual players to research themselves.

It is not always clear-cut by date or nationality. Most of the pre-60's British armoured cars (for example) do not have smoke dispensers as standard (pre-Ferret) and the US are also very inconsistent - M60s for example could have them but very often they were detached. A lot of the US, British, French & Soviet kit that was sent abroad, was without dispensers - so you cannot always assume that an M113 in Arab/Iranian service would have dispensers.

Thanks
Mark

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

The Chinese list has an omission, the Type 89 Japanese tank - had one or 2 btn from 1944/5 to 1947/8? No combat use but could have.

[pbeccas]

Just wondering why the T62 is not available in the Arab Israeli Wars list? The Egyptian 25th Armoured Brigade used them exclusively during the Yom Kippur War.  They were ambushed and engaged the Israelis on the western side of the canal in a night tank battle with Centurion's of the Israeli 162nd Reserve Armoured Division on 17 October.  And lost. Only 5 T62s escaped.

Been doing a lot of reading on the campaign.  Apparently the 25th Armoured was an Elite unit. Sent in as a last ditch effort to destroy the Israeli bridge crossing.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

It's in the list I wrote for Mark, assume that it's an editing problem. stats are :

T62   100   AFV   25   5/100   5/60   3   4   4      >1985 R

[pbeccas]

Thanks Lord Kermit.

[Raider4]

It's in the list I wrote for Mark, assume that it's an editing problem. stats are :

T62 100 AFV 25 5/100 5/60 3 4 4 >1985 R

That's different from the Soviet list.

[hammurabi70]

That's different from the Soviet list.

Does the Soviet list for 1983 have predominantly T62 or T72 tanks?

[Big Insect]

Just wondering why the T62 is not available in the Arab Israeli Wars list? The Egyptian 25th Armoured Brigade used them exclusively during the Yom Kippur War.  They were ambushed and engaged the Israelis on the western side of the canal in a night tank battle with Centurion's of the Israeli 162nd Reserve Armoured Division on 17 October.  And lost. Only 5 T62s escaped.

Been doing a lot of reading on the campaign.  Apparently the 25th Armoured was an Elite unit. Sent in as a last ditch effort to destroy the Israeli bridge crossing.

Yes - thanks - this has been picked up previously as an editing error - we'll get them added in when we do the major list edit. Cheers
Mark

[HogansHeroes]

You can easily convert a vehicle to Recce by adding 20pts. But we'll look to add the Strv 74 in the Recce section _ I will just need to check the service dates.

The tractors are an easy add - there are stats for these in the British Falkland list - but they are classified as 'Prime Movers' so can tow things but not act as transports - although if the Swedes had them towing large trailers they might be able to move INF: units as well - but they'd be classified as a VEH.

Cheers
Mark

Thanks Mark, I have found multiple sources mentioning Type 66 Brigades would use requisitioned civilian tractors and trailers in a conflict for transporting infantry. Makes sense, because local tractors would be well-suited to winter conditions. I couldn't find a Swedish picture, but here is the Finnish army in the 1970s using tractors and trailers. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGKCCHXXwAA5vod?format=jpg&name=4096x4096