The Italian Wars in 15mm

[Orcs]

Perhaps they were manned by people of diminutive stature?

OOOH I am suddenly becoming all PC, must go and take some tablets to stop that


Makes me want to start painting the 100's of old Mikes Models/ Essex Renaissance I have and give the Furioso rules a try.   I had better not though, as Sunjester wants me to finish my French Foreign Legion.  Particuarly as the last joint project we did was WSS and I took  a little longer than Sunjester to get my British done to face his French .

[Cavillarius]

I'll be using them under Warmaster Revolution rules, 'cause that's what we play at the club I recently joined. We'll probably treat them as steamtanks, which tend to break down quite easily too. To me they're really just mobile gunplatforms.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Steve, do you have a link for those please? I can't find them...

https://www.alternative-armies.com/products/hot101-da-vinci-tank

[Leman]

Just become aware of the Blue Moon Italian Wars range and have found them to be pretty compatible with Venexia/Mirliton/Museum etc. The photo below shows a BM Italian general in front of some Venexia gendarmes plus a BM Italian spearman (shield not yet attached) with an unarmored Venexia Italian pikeman:

[Westmarcher]

How do these manufacturers compare to Peter Pig? I get the impression PP are slightly smaller.

[steve_holmes_11]

Steve, do you have a link for those please? I can't find them...

Certainly, delighted to assist.

3 variants of the Glider (Flamethrower, Bulnderbuss and Ram), I preferred the Blunderbuss:

http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/demonworld-15mm-c-76/demonworld-classic-c-76_151/dwarves-c-76_151_97/4422-bat-dwarven-glider-with-blunderbuss-p-2383.html

The 3 x 7 bank Organ Gun:

http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/demonworld-15mm-c-76/demonworld-classic-c-76_151/dwarves-c-76_151_97/4424-bullethailer-multi-barrel-cannon-wcrew-p-2385.html

And a bonus (Can't recall if this is another Leonardo, or a different invention) a Carousel artillery piece.

http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/demonworld-15mm-c-76/demonworld-classic-c-76_151/dwarves-c-76_151_97/4424-bullethailer-multi-barrel-cannon-wcrew-p-2385.html

[Leman]

The Peter Pig Italian Wars range is no longer available, but the figures, especially the cavalry, are smaller than Blue Moon figures. Similarly the PP WoR range is smaller (although the cavalry less so than the old IW range). From the figures I currently have, the best fits appear to be Venexia, Mirliton, Museum Miniatures, Rank and File and Fighting 15s (the old Gladiator Games range?). Apart from Mirliton (marketed as Italian Condottieri and Swiss) they are all specifically Italian Wars ranges (although the Rank and File are just Italian states). Were I starting from scratch I would use Blue Moon, Venexia (Lancashire Games), Mirliton and Museum Miniatures, with Ancient and Modern late Medieval equipment and civilians for camps, baggage, religious persons etc. BM, however, do a very nice pack of civilians on foot and Essex do a caroccio religious ox drawn wagon.

Slightly smaller, but will work if in separate units or armies, are QRF, Alternative Armies, Essex, Minifigs. Most of the QRF figures are very nice, particularly the Italians and the early Tudor English (some of which can be shanghaied into the pre-1530 Spanish army). In my opinion Essex do the best early English demilancers. Alternative Armies do a French archer armed with lance, but still carrying a slung crossbow, and some very nice Swiss arquebus and halberdiers. Venexia have the best lighter armoured gendarme (Italian light cavalry, French archer, German rear ranks) and the best genitor cavalry. Venexia, Blue Moon and QRF have the most authentic looking Stradiots.

[steve_holmes_11]

The nice looking gun barrels were supplied with the tank by Alternative Armies - maybe they had a rethink about them? I've only bought stuff from them over the last couple of months. I actually think the whole thing, including the barrels, is rather small for 15mm scale and view them rather as large arquebus barrels. They will still give a nasty surprise to the enemy.

Like yourself I viewed them as what might have been called a Zambuck, Jezzail or Swivel Gun.
Given their low location (I'm crediting the design with some semblance of practicality here), I wonder whether they were intended as a one shot close defence system, rather than the primary armament.

I've opted to leave the holes open at present with a decision to fill  or use as air/firing holes later.

[steve_holmes_11]

Hard to imagine Da Vinci's tank being able to accommodate much ordnance of any calibre in such a confined space bearing in mind it must also accommodate wheels, propelling mechanism, powder, ammo and crew(s).

I go along with the idea that Leonardo sketched impractical concepts.
Supported by the "wrong way" gearing on his tank's crank propulsion.

The plan was to have the cranks operated by cartured Turkish galley slaves.
That suggests a rather larger "double decker" design along the lines of a galley.
Propulsion on the ground floor (Poor slaves operating the cranks), fighting men on top.
I'd speculate the shooting would have been higher up (through the raised bit).

The closest practical device I know of is the Korean Turtle ship, which incorporated anti climbing spikes and fireproofing.
I'd suggest that any tank users would not expect it to fight along and would supply and escort of soldiers / engineers to protect it and help with unditching.

[steve_holmes_11]

How do these manufacturers compare to Peter Pig? I get the impression PP are slightly smaller.

The various comparisons place Blue Moon firmly in the 18mm camp.
So about a foot taller than their "true scale" cousins.

[Leman]

Scale creep is an odd thing. Even Peter Pig figures now suffer from it. The new WWI remodelled figures are bigger than the original range, particularly the cavalry. A pity because I actually prefer his older style. This has always been a problem that seems to have been around since the first metal wargames figures were produced. Hinton Hunt and Jacklex produced figures which worked with the 20mm with the Airfix plastics, but then Minifigs threw the baby out with the bath water and things have never settled. The surprising thing is the way 28mm plastics seem to broadly fit one with another.

For real 18mm figures take a look at the Lancashire Games 18mm ranges. The Italian Wars one looks really strange. 

[Bunny]

Nice,

I have Venaxia, which are now available again and one of the best ranges out there.

I have recently got some Blue Moon and they look to fit well and are very nice!

[Leman]

Steve, many thanks for the Ral Partha info. Now ordered some fliers, giant crossbow, rotating cannon and a couple of landsknecht style characters. Should have enough now to add a little extra spice to a condottieri bust up. I have also now discovered Pete's Flags for the Italian Wars in 15mm on Ebay - beautiful designs at a very reasonable cost.

[Cavillarius]

Thanks Steve!