Hearts of Oak (well MDF...)

[Last Hussar]

Orcs... shush 

[Last Hussar]

Yeah, Fred, should have thought about checking other 1813 scenarios! Glad you pointed this out.

It's really down to two states; "veteran", which is basically 1812 survivors in my head, and "conscript" who are a bit flaky, while still being headstrong; the conscripts in the rules for 13/14 are weaker than a regular unit, but impetuous,  which is both a plus and minus. "We're good in a charge!""don't want you to charge, no don't...""CHARGE!"

Any lists people can point me towards, or any knowledge?

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

No, I don't mean the on table, I mean the actual unit historically. Sorry, reading it back I realise I didn't make it clear.

In that case it's a lot of reading and not fixed, a unit may perfom badly in one battle and extremly well in the next. Fraid it's very subjective.

[Last Hussar]

I knew someone was going to say that 

It's not so much 'on the day' performance - that is just bad dice rolling - it's really about who are the experienced units, who, while have an influx of raw recruits, are still basically old hands, and those Boney raised in a hurry at the start of '13.

Worst case scenario is some idea of proportion between 'Veteran' and 'Conscript', including for allied nations. For the Allied nations I am going with the 'Early' list as a guide- if they were sh... not very good in 1809, then they are not very good in 1813.

[Orcs]

I knew someone was going to say that 

 that is just bad dice rolling

Which I have to say is a specialism of yours!
Add that to Sunjesters "Incredibly lucky dice" and you have a disaster in the game

[Last Hussar]

I would point out, again, the LotR game where my rolling was better than yours. 

Pity we were on the same side. Against Sunjester. Cheating bastard, rolling good dice...

[Last Hussar]

Finished the French Guard and Cavalry lists for Leipzig

5 Cavalry corps = 131 points

The Imperial Guard = 293 points.

A standard game is 300 points!

[Last Hussar]

An aside thought, while I try and determine proportion between Veteran and Conscript French.

Don't initially mark them up. Say I have 5 Veteran and 9 Conscript units. Put chits for them in a bag, 6 of Vet, 10 of Conscript.

When the French player needs to know if it is one or the other, he pulls a chit from the bag at random to see what the unit is. So if firing (for dice needed), takes firing damage (so you know what to reduce Elan to), facing cavalry (affects conscripts), or charging (bonus to French conscript).

[kipt]

I did something like this for my Napoleonic rules. Each unit had its designation but when first in combat a d6 was rolled. 1,2 down one level, 3,4 stays the same, 5.6 up one level.  And then it stayed there for the remainder of the game.

[Orcs]

An aside thought, while I try and determine proportion between Veteran and Conscript French.

Don't initially mark them up. Say I have 5 Veteran and 9 Conscript units. Put chits for them in a bag, 6 of Vet, 10 of Conscript.

When the French player needs to know if it is one or the other, he pulls a chit from the bag at random to see what the unit is. So if firing (for dice needed), takes firing damage (so you know what to reduce Elan to), facing cavalry (affects conscripts), or charging (bonus to French conscript).

The principles of war sets of rules used a system like that.

[Last Hussar]

So having posted at The Other Place,  new idea.

I'm thinking probably the entire "non-guard" should be conscript. Maybe give young guard as the "veteran line", with just the Middle Guard classified as 'Guard', and Old Guard as (unsurprisingly) "Old Guard".

[steve_holmes_11]

Yeah, Fred, should have thought about checking other 1813 scenarios! Glad you pointed this out.

It's really down to two states; "veteran", which is basically 1812 survivors in my head, and "conscript" who are a bit flaky, while still being headstrong; the conscripts in the rules for 13/14 are weaker than a regular unit, but impetuous,  which is both a plus and minus. "We're good in a charge!""don't want you to charge, no don't...""CHARGE!"

Any lists people can point me towards, or any knowledge?

I'm a little late to this and can't point you to reliable references.

Here's your problem:

1812 in Russia is a complete s***show, units that marched as far as Borodino come home  in tatters (or not at all).

1813 
Boney organises his young guard, which sweeps most of his veterans into this veteran corps.
Where does he get them? He guts those tattered units.
At the same time he's conscripting more younger men to bring those units back to strength.


The problem: 
It's relatively easy to grind through regimental histories, and find locations (and occasionally strengths).
You won't find much in the style of 
"Every veteran of 5 years service was transferred to the young guard, and all remaining privates were promoted to corporal".

The simple fix:
In your army: the young guard are veterans, the rest are conscripts (unless you can find a credible exception).
On the table: the conscripts are the ones wearing greatcoats.

[Last Hussar]

This is really what I have decided.
So;

Old Guard class as Old Guard (!) (1 Unit)
Middle Guard class as Guard (1 unit)
Young Guard class as Veteran (2 units)
Everyone else class as Conscript.

Thanks for backing my assumptions up.

[Last Hussar]

So Up to date points with above suggestion

ALL the line II-XI (no X) Corps - 402 points
ALL the Cavalry - 131 Points
The Imperial Guard - 251 Points

Old Guard is 2x'Old Guard', 1x'Guard' - These are the Old and Middle Guards, 7x'Veteran' - this is the Young Guard in two corps, with the 2nd Corps having 4 units, but all understrength. Although the rules say to consider making this 3 at normal strength, 4 and U/S fits the historical lay out.

Am considering making I Young Corps 4 units, with the 2 in 3rd Division 'Understrength', again, fits the lay out.

So thoughts gentlemen;
Rules state units are 3-5,000 men.
If less than 3,000 for HISTORICAL scenarios (only) use the 'Understrength' rule.
If over 5,000 use 'Overstrength'.

All divisions are of 2 Brigades, each of 6 bns.

I Young Guard Corps
1st Div - 6040 Men
3rd Div - 4730 Men

II Young Guard Corps
2nd Div - 5470 Men
4th Div - 5520 Men.

Options
I Corps
3 Units
Or
4 Units, 2 U/S

II Corps
2 Units, both O/S
Or
4 units, all U/S
Or
3 Units

OR

1 Corps called 'Young guard' which ignores the Div/Bde structure and works as 6 units

[Last Hussar]

Further Thoughts.

I'm not giving the Swedish contingent any extra characteristics, such as Skirmish bonus etc. They have an Elan of 6, the Avant Guard is élan of 7 and 'Mixed', (that is, infantry with a cavalry bonus, rather than 1 base Infantry, 1 base cavalry) because of the low numbers of cavalry with the AG. There is a separate Cavalry Brigade, and Artillery unit. Two of the three infantry bases have attached artillery.

The 6 Elan is to represent the limited involvement Sweden had, where as Napoleon reformed the Grande Armee with a sweep of what was left in France, the good units being put in the Garde.

(An Artillery stand represents 8-12 guns. You can attach a gun stand to infantry to represent integral artillery which gives a 1 die bonus to musket shooting, range of 2, or put 3 stands on a base to show a large battery, which trades limited ammo for long range of 8.)