Facebook: Friends of the Tank Museum

[John Cook]

Yes a very capable tank, and one that proved very adaptable and upgradable during and after WWII.

I think that's right.  On the Sherman, and tanks generally, for what it is worth.  My late uncle joined-up in 1940 at the age of forty and spent the war as a trooper in 3rd Hussars from 1941 in North Africa and Italy to Palestine in 1946.  The first tank he served in was the Crusader, which I remember him telling me was not popular with its crews mainly because, according to him, it was unreliable in the North Africa terrain.  It wasn't just the engine, it seems, but it was too fast for its chassis and threw its tracks too easily.  Apparently the only good thing about it was its speed and low silhouette.  He didn't think much of Grants, which replaced the regiment's Crusaders.  They were too high to be a success in the desert and the configuration of the main armament was not a success.  He loved the Sherman because it was the first tank that was superior to most German armour in North Africa, both in terms of protection and armament but the greatest fear they had was not from German tanks but from the 88mm.  It had plenty of room for the crew, was very reliable and had a resonable gun, derived, I think, from the French 75mm of WW1 fame.  The regiment re-equipped in Palestine in 1945 with Staghound armoured cars.  I once asked him about Tigers and Panthers and he told be he only ever saw them in Italy, and only ones that had been destroyed.  They were, apparently, a comparative rarity.  The German tank they feared most was what he called the MkIV 'Special' because of its long 75mm gun.  His crew was considered lucky, because none of their tanks were ever hit, until they got bombed by the USAAF in Italy.  I've got his campaign medals which include the Africa Star with 8th Army Clasp and Italy Star with MID Oakleaf.  As an aside, there is a story about how he, my father and another uncle all happened to be in Cairo at the same time and wanted to go out for a beer together.  All the bars had been divided into those for officers, those for senior NCO and WOs and those for enlisted men.  It was a kind of officers'/sergeants'/ORs' mess system.  My father was a captain in the East Lancs at the time, my uncle a trooper in 3rd Hussars and my other uncle a WO2 in the Pay Corps, so they shared my Dad's pips and spent to evening as three 2nd Lts, hoping that they wouldn't meet anyone who recognised them.   

[pierre the shy]

Nice story about your father John - I doubt they would have run into any issues while disguised as officers if they'd met up with any Kiwis or Aussies in Cairo that night as the ANZACs were, at least by reputation, a little "casual" when it came to saluting British officers     

[fred.]

Great family history, John, thanks for sharing. 


I had a bit of a look at production numbers - and in wargame terms if the German player fielded 6 Panthers and a Tiger (a not improbable force on the table top). Then the allied player could field 50 Shermans. And given that at least half (if not a fair bit more) of the German armour was on the Russian front, then there is an argument for that 50 Shermans being closer to 100.

I suppose the point to this is that the Allies realised that most tanks wouldn't fight other tanks, they were to support the infantry attacks against enemy infantry. And in the fairly close range fighting in mos of Western Europe there was less need for the high velocity guns - though the Sherman proved capable of carrying 17pdr and 76mm HV guns. 

[sultanbev]

Yes, this is one thing we tend to forget in our tank-heavy wargames.
Most of the time tanks didn't end up fighting tanks. You can tell this by ammunition load outs - Russian and German tanks generally carried 50% HE ammo, Russians often up to 75%,  Americans generally 50% HE, with only the British as low as 25% HE.
One of the most remarkable examples is the Romanian R2 TACAM, which we think of as a tank destroyer - it carried 9 rounds of AP and 21 rounds of HE.

Mark

[FierceKitty]

Yes, this is one thing we tend to forget in our tank-heavy wargames.
Most of the time tanks didn't end up fighting tanks. You can tell this by ammunition load outs - Russian and German tanks generally carried 50% HE ammo, Russians often up to 75%,  Americans generally 50% HE, with only the British as low as 25% HE.
One of the most remarkable examples is the Romanian R2 TACAM, which we think of as a tank destroyer - it carried 9 rounds of AP and 21 rounds of HE.

Mark

Interesting. When I started in the Hobby, in the 70s, the rules we used didn't even allow tanks to use their main guns at non-armoured targets.

[paulr]

John, Thanks for sharing

[toxicpixie]

Have a read of Keegan's "The Tank Men" - he goes into the Sherman in some detail, and pulls from a variety of intersting sources and OR, and the Sherman Panther tank on tank kill rate is waaaaay in Shermans favour. Even if Panther is on the defensive!

Massively underrated tank and indeed quite deliberately luridly smeared for book sales :/

Even the Russians loved it

[sultanbev]

We tend to play a lot of ~Sept 1943 games in Italy, and for Axis forces without Panzerfausts, Panzershrecks and lots of PAK40s, Shermans can be very tough tanks indeed. Once suffered a single Sherman troop of 23rd Armoured Brigade romping through an entire Grenadier company of 29th Grenadier Division in one game, also catching a PAK40 platoon on the move and demolishing it. The standard German rifle anti-tank grenade of the time is fairly useless against Shermans.

M4A2 Shermans are particularly fast relative to other tanks, and can catch you unawares if you're not deployed right.

So yes, no "Shermans-are-rubbish" in my wargaming world 

[pierre the shy]

Just to confuse you a bit I found this video about restoring an Australian late war production Grant which actually used Sherman rather than eariler Lee/Grant running gear!

I guess that they are lucky to have some wrecks available that they can just go off into the bush and get the bits they need. Mind you I wouldn't like to see their H&S record given how they just hammer away to get the bogie assemblies apart, or fire up the Oxy cutter to give the components a bit of heat.

She'll be right cobber......I'll just throw another Grant on the barbie!       

[steve_holmes_11]

Have a read of Keegan's "The Tank Men" - he goes into the Sherman in some detail, and pulls from a variety of intersting sources and OR, and the Sherman Panther tank on tank kill rate is waaaaay in Shermans favour. Even if Panther is on the defensive!

Massively underrated tank and indeed quite deliberately luridly smeared for book sales :/

Even the Russians loved it

Quantity has a quality is its own.

So does operability (A tank that starts in the morning's a lot better that the broken down, or out of fuel Jagdtiger).

[fsn]

Vietnam War Tree Crusher


Reminded me of this from Thunderbirds

[Steve J]

Blimey, that's big and frankly bizarre.

[fsn]

Yes. I hear that quite often.


Big question is "why haven't Pendraken done one?"

[Leon]

Big question is "why haven't Pendraken done one?"

It wouldn't be too hard to scratch build it I think, all you'd need is some plasticard or cut MDF to create the cab, then a threaded bar and some coupling nuts to create the hex rollers.  It wouldn't be perfect but it would definitely look close.

[fsn]

Excellent. Now all we need is someone who does the Vietnam War to get on it.

Me?

Oh no. I don't do Vietnam. Sorry.   

Glad to see someone else's efforts though.