BKC III - Changes to Russian Army lists

[MikeW]

I have just bought a PDF copy of the rules having played BKC II and was looking forward to seeing what changes have been made. It is certainly a much better layout and far easier to read and follow.

I can see that there have been changes to ranges amongst other things, but I am very puzzled by the changes to the battelgroup composition, particularly for the Russians. In BKC II the mid war  force could have 9 T34s per 1000 points but now that has dropped to 0-2 T34/76 1940 or 1941 and 0-1 T34/76 1942/43. Similarly BKC II allowed 9 T28s but now its 0-1 and it has gone from 6 T60s or T70s to just 0-1. It just doesn't fit with my understanding of Russian tank numbers in the period. Meanwhile the Germans appear to have been left with much the same numbers in BKC III as in BKC II so they could easily outnumber the Russians in a Kursk scenario. Surely this cannot be right?

Am I missing something or misunderstanding something? If not then I am going to have a lot of unused models.

Your thoughts would be very much welcomed by my fellow players.

Thanks,

Mike

[barbarian]

Do not have the rules yet but could it be intended by company instead of battalion ?

[Steve J]

Hi Mike and welcome on board.

There were issues with the points values when BKCII came out. Taking your example of mid war T-34s, after 'buying' your compulsory CO for 60 points, you are only able to get 6 T-34s, whether mid or late variants, from the remaining 960 points, despite it allowing you 9 per 1,000 points in the list. Now you can buy a maximum of 3 in BKCIII. Now my knowledge of Russian tank production is minimal, but my thoughts are that these 'restrictions' reflect the general lack of Russian armour at this period. Now for battles like Kursk, I'd simply ignore the limits and field a historical OOB. It's what I and others have done with BKCII and will continue to do so.

Hope this helps?

[weredoomed2003]

I agree it does seem strange.  If you play by the limits in the rules then 1942 Germans can field as many Panzer IVs as it wants compared to the Russians fielding a max of 1.  I'm just going to ignore that rule.  We all like to play with armour, but I think a restriction that the maximum number of T34s in any one engagement is 4 (1 model represents 2-4 actual tanks) is nonsense.  I think we have all seen pictures with more than 4 T34s in the same frame !

[weredoomed2003]

But after a couple of read throughs there do seem some really sensible changes -especially the change to infantry support weapons with the indirect ability.  We always found mortars to be too dominating, especially with higher command ability armies, so changing to a '6' for all indirect fire looks a really good balance.  The rigid doctrine has lost its +1 if all doing the same action but that always caused some problems if I'm honest.  Russians now have forward obersevers (hooray) but my KVs are now lumbering beasts with a max of 1 move (boo)-  but both are sensible changes.  I also like removing any specifics to the list of abilities as that makes it all read a bit easier and is more condusive to scenario specifics.  So rather than have US Marines defined as 4/30 all infantry are 3/30 but if designated Vet they re-roll 1s.
Will try a playtest as soon as we csn but first impressions are really good with sensible changes.

[Ithoriel]

Hi Mike and welcome on board.

There were issues with the points values when BKCII came out. Taking your example of mid war T-34s, after 'buying' your compulsory CO for 60 points, you are only able to get 6 T-34s, whether mid or late variants, from the remaining 960 points, despite it allowing you 9 per 1,000 points in the list. Now you can buy a maximum of 3 in BKCIII. Now my knowledge of Russian tank production is minimal, but my thoughts are that these 'restrictions' reflect the general lack of Russian armour at this period. Now for battles like Kursk, I'd simply ignore the limits and field a historical OOB. It's what I and others have done with BKCII and will continue to do so.

Hope this helps?

The 9 limit on numbers from BKC II is for armies from 1000 - 1999 points. Fielding 9 T-34s was perfectly possible, if not always advisable!

Never understood the problems people had understanding this.

The more I read the more I think I'll be staying with BKC II armylists. The rules themselves I'll reserve judgement on until I get my copy.

[Steve J]

I've had a quick read through and am still picking up little bits here and there that are interesting. Will try and play the same scenario with both BKCII and BKCIII so that I can compare and contrast both versions.

[Steve J]

The 9 limit on numbers from BKC II is for armies from 1000 - 1999 points. Fielding 9 T-34s was perfectly possible, if not always advisable

See page 121 under Battlegroup Selection Rules:
- Max nine medium tanks units per 1000 points.

See page 45 "so battlegroups up to 1999 points use the limits for a 1000 point battlegroup"

Thanks for this Ithoriel . We've tended to use the limits as per the page 121 example, which is where my error came from .

[Ithoriel]

Just got my copy of the rules in the post.

Rummaging through waiting to out to the pictures. So far the only army list I've looked at is the 41-44 Russian one ... which looks seriously weird to me.

More thoughts later.

[MikeW]

Many thanks to everyone who has replied so far for trying to help me understand the new army lists. It is great to be part of such a supportive and friendly group of fellow enthusiasts.

I have just spotted that the new German Army Eastern Front June '41 - May '45 has a limit of 0-3 Tigers per 1000 point Battlegroup BUT the notes indicate they can only be used 1944+ so not at Kursk. Perhaps the reduced number of Russian tanks will have a chance after all.

To be honest I remain a bit puzzled by the significant differences between BKC II and III. Perhaps the answer is as suggested to stick to version II army lists?

I shall keep reading your replies and hope for greater enlightenment.

[Steve J]

I think we are all taking time to digest the new lists Mike. I've got two games planned with the same forces, one using BKCII, the other BKCIII. That way I hope to be able to come to grips with the differences between the two.

[weredoomed2003]

Mnnnnnn.  All the self propelled guns are missing from the Russian 41-44 army list too.  I think we may need a rewrite of the army lists as there seem so many errors and inconsistencies or at least an official errata sheet.  I know this will take time but particularly the Russian 41-44 list will be one of the most used.

[Jammybee]

Few things i noticed when making my Battle of Moscow Brigade:

I think the Barbarossa list and 1942+ list have switched T-34 allowances (0+ and 0-3)

Non-recce versions of certain light tanks need to be added with higher allowances (t60, t70 etc)

Quad MG AA is more effective than quad 20mm AA and bofors etc

[weredoomed2003]

Just another query - is the IS-2 really only 5/40 against armour?  The SU122 is 4/100??