Sudan 1880 & 90s

[JeffNNN]

One thing if you want a feel for the period then have a look at Churchill's "The River War".  It does have some oob's if I recall correctly?  (My copy is in the loft) Just remember that at this stage he was "a young man on the make". I always like the reference to his WW1 history by someone I'm too lazy to google. "Winston has written a big book about himself and called it 'The World Crisis'!"

[paulr]

Thanks Grumpy et al

Our group plays quite a bit of Volley & Bayonet and a friend of a friend down in Christchurch has developed a V&B variant for the Sudan so we will probably give that a bash before perhaps incorporating some parts of the other V&B Sudan variations floating around.

We already play about 8 different rule sets and 15-20 periods/variants 
So would prefer not to add another rule set if we can avoid it

I came across an OoB for El Teb and Tamai and could probably do those with about 400 figures but there weren't any Egyptians or Madhist cavalry or ...

Once I start adding the various "missing bits" I'm rapidly approaching 1,000 figures Not really a side project any more

The battle of Ginnis is perhaps more the sort of battle I'm looking at; 6-10 battalions of various sorts in two Brigades with a small brigade of cavalry and supporting machine guns and artillery.

Any OoBs for this or similar battle would be of real interest.

Also any information on the mix of Mahdist forces would be useful, most of the info I have found so far talks in suspiciously round total numbers not even breaking down foot, mounted or guns.

[Maenoferren]

I am back home drop me a PM and I will sort you some OOB's out

[Sandinista]

Once I start adding the various "missing bits" I'm rapidly approaching 1,000 figures Not really a side project any more

I know that feeling, I bought a few figures from the LoA range so I could do the battle of Vienna, nearly 4000 figures later... 

Cheers
Ian

[Maenoferren]

A couple of lists of the Mahdist oob

For Mahdist forces for Abu Klea...
Berber contingent:
250 horse + 1750 foot
Plus 60 'turncoat' Egyptian riflemen
Metemmeh contingent
2000 foot
Main force
4-6000 of which 400 were rifles.

For Abu Kru:
7-8000 of which up to 1000 could have been cavalry. 5 Baqqara emirs were killed in the battle.

The problem with the Mahdist numbers is that they seem to be guesswork.  In the various reports or letters the numbers vary for example after Ginnis there seems to be no official despatches relating to this. Wingate gives the casualties as 500 killed and 300 wounded, but Haggard states the casualty claims were too high (but then again he normally give different figures to the official ones) but figures on the Mahdist forces on the frontier range from 4000 to 6000. They had both rifles and at least 5 cannon.

General Butler commanded the 1st Brigade with the 1st Berkshires, the West Kents, the 2nd Durham Light Infantry, one camel battery (six guns) Egyptian artillery, with a sixty-man escort from the 3rd Egyptians, and the 11th Company R.E. Colonel Huyshe,who commanded the Berkshires at Tofrek, commanded the 2nd Brigade with the Yorkshire Regiment, six companies of the Cameron Highlanders, two companies (152 men) of the IXth Sudanese, 278 men of the 1st Egyptians, the 3rd Company (39 men) of the Egyptian Camel Corps, a detachment of the British Camel Corps (the last time such a unit appeared in the Sudan), one mule battery (screw guns) of the 2nd battery, 1st Brigade, South Irish Division R.A., and two Gardner guns. ort (see pp. Wingate 215-278; Haggard, pp. 367-368; and Cairint 1/11/55).

The mounted troops under Colonel Blake consisted of the 1st Company (11 men) Egyptian Camel Corps, one company Mounted Infantry (referred to in one dispatch as the Royal Highlanders Mounted Infantry), the 20th Hussars, and one squadron ~57 men) of the Egyptian cavalry. Two companies of the IXth Sudanese were left in Barrow's zariba opposite Fort Kosha on the west bank, 200 men of the 3rd Egyptians were at Mograka Fort, one company of the Camerons in Kosha fort and one company Camerons with one Krupp gun in the redoubt outside the fort (see pp. Wingate 215-278; Haggard, pp. 367-368; and Cairint 1/11/55).

The Durham's had left their red coats in Cairo so we're in khaki.

I

[paulr]

Thanks for the help Maenoferren, PM sent

My thinking now is to get a couple of representative forces which will hopefully not require too many figures.

The Imperial forces will need; Guards, Highlanders, British line (some in grey, khaki & one in red), Naval troops, Egyptian, Sudanese, British cavalry, Egyptian cavalry, Camels, Gatling guns, screw guns, normal guns [I better stop] Indain infantry, Bengal lancers, ...

What I am not so sure of is what would be a representative mix for Mahdists; warriors, rifle infantry, cavalry, camels, artillery, ...

I see there are multiple 'tribes', did they fight together or were they regional

A couple of Imperial Infantry Brigades and a Cavalry Brigade seems a reasonable force, with enough extras to allow for a variety of forces.

If I get enough Mahdists to attack them that will be more than enough if they are on the defensive.

[Leman]

No Post Office Volunteers in blue?

[paulr]

No Post Office Volunteers in blue?

I was tempted by the New South Wales Contingent but they didn't see much action

As was mentioned on another thread it is all about the variety of 'toys' on the table

[Leman]

Throw them into the mix anyway - it is a game after all rather than a re-enactment.

[Maenoferren]

I have a mix of grey, khaki and red..? Just for the look of the thing The Marines are in grey with pipe clayed leather and helmet cover. Some have black webbing, some khaki etc.
Regarding the tribes if we take the Berber contingent above it was made up of:
Ababda, Bisharin and Barabra tribes.  Each would be led by their own emir in this case: Abu AL Majid Nasr AL Din Abu l-kailak  who in turn was under command of the 'general' ( for want of a better word) Musa Wad Hilu (apologies for the lack of squigles over the different letters)
My different forces are on the painting forum ( I have far too many Dervish horse - but, as I ride I thought what the heck )
My progress can be found here:)

http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9952.0.html

[paulr]

Thanks Maenoferren, I had a good look at that thread last night on the train home, very useful

[Leman]

This thread has got me all excited, and I could be found this morning starting to print out my copy of Science v. Pluck. But, should I go 6 or 10 (10 has naval brigade but 6 has Gardner guns).

[Maenoferren]

What about 2nd El teb as a starting point?  2 infantry brigades plus a cavalry brigade with independent commands of Naval brigade Gardner guns, royal artillery and engineers against 6-8000 Dervish with artillery  add in imaginary cavalry and a pretty good starting force.

Leman I am not sure which version I have as I didn't bother printing the front cover
I have done 15mm for the officers ( when things go wrong)

[Leman]

Mine is 3rd edition, with a covering note saying a fourth is on the way, but that was a couple of years ago, so I'll just stick with the 3rd.

[Maenoferren]

I got mine from Wargames vault so it is probably the same one.