First look at the new WWII Polish!

[fsn]

Soldiers do tend to adopt uniform postures in combat

Do they? I had a quick google to check.








I would say you're about right there Sunray. Perhaps fro WWII the best pose would be advancing with rifle at the hip?

[Sunray]

I am much obliged to my learned friend [FSN] for his diligent detective work in sourcing this evidence on which the case for uniform poses or limited poses now rests.

I would add a further caveat.  In the post war era, soldiers of different nations evolved different styles of carrying their rifles.

Americans carry the light M16 by the pistol grip - Israelis hook it to the chest harness to leave hands free.  Argies sling their FNs over the shoulder, but Para Toms and Bootnecks cradle the SLR - and SA80 - in a very distinctive way; hands clasped taking the weight on the web belt.  It is a habit born out of serving in Northern Ireland that both underplays the weapon - you can talk to civilians without being perceived as menacing, it is a very comfortable grip for a long tab, like the Falklands, and its relatively easy to throw the rifle up as opposed to unslinging it.   I have never seen a Brit using the carrying handle.  Well TA perhaps.

In terms of period.  WW1 was the age of advancing at high port, usually with bayonet fixed.   WW2 saw new squad weapons - the SMG and LMG.
You note how the Bren gunner blends in with the riflemen and even the Sten armed troops carry their light SMGs in the same style as the men with the Mk4s..  Yeah, advancing [walking] with weapon at the hip was probably the common WW2 style .

When giving Fire Control orders to a section to engage an advancing Red platoon, as they enter the Killing Ground,the targeting was as follows -  any target carrying bins - probably an officer- close to him will be the radio operator [both men gun group target] and then look for the LMG/GPMGs and then  Anti tank/RPGs specialist for your individual rifles.  In the first opening exchange you hope to have malleted their command, signals and ability to return suppressive fire.   You are well on the way to winning the firefight.


The Red force will be eyeballing you the same way as you advance to contact,  hence the need to look as uniform as possible.

With my new 1970s/80s Paras I have kept the last solider in the brick with rifle in the firing position.   His mates are moving...he's covering.

[FierceKitty]

The position of the camera suggests that these are not photographs from the hottest part of the action, mind you.

[John Cook]

The position of the camera suggests that these are not photographs from the hottest part of the action, mind you.

Indeed, and although most are either standing or walking not one is identical.  I'll bet both my pensions that I could find a similar set of photos where the poses are significantly different.

[John Cook]

Good point John, I hadn't looked at it in that way for extra infantry poses, in the past money dicated the number of poses - so running, firing - mixed standing kneeling and prone, advancing, yes with the support weapons - Ive done this with the Lewis gunners in the ww1 range - possibly done too many figures as the prone don't sell!!!  Some figures like the ww2 French cavalry I've only done 1 mounted and 1 dismounted - I cann't see a great deal of sales.

Dave
[/quote]

No, no prone please Dave, except perhaps were crewed weapons need it - typically LMGs firing.  

On variety, there are eight different marching and eight different advancing figures in the new ACW range.  This variety makes all the difference, I think, when putting an interesting stand of figures together, unless figures are just going to be convenient 'handles' with which to move 'counters'.      

Variety is even more important for modern ranges, in my opinion.  Here is an example of six different poses of men running.

[John Cook]

Here's another example.  As you can see, not one is the same

[fsn]

As to your previous, photo, I would suggest that there are two actions being carried out there. One is the charging forward, rifle held across the body, and the second is bayonetting a figure on the ground (which makes a fool of my Airfix ACW comment.)

I would also submit that soldiers very rarely sprint, and when they do they make awful poses. Trotting / walking seems a more appropriate stance, and there the range of movement is far less, particularly with similarly encumbered soldiers.   

I would humbly suggest that there are four "phases" that one could use for figure poses.

1) Moving forward in a non-hostile environment. Walking poses, rifles slung. Brits on patrol these days seem to have the rifle held across the body, barrel down.
2) Moving forward into contact. I would suggest that is the time that rifles are held at port, or from the waist, or at the trail. I watched a training video of he US Army in the early '60s. Their advance basically had two positions - one firing from the hip, the second firing from the shoulder. Watch modern US troops and they all seem to adopt a shouldered weapon, and that funny short stepped run. 
3) Firefight. Firing poses standing, kneeling, prone. Loading. Grenades. Or if we are to believe all we are told, one firing and 20 cowering in a foxhole.
4) Hand to hand. Bayonetting, clubbing, entrenching tools etc.

My preference is for 2). I would also suggest that just as in the US training video, there is probably a prescribed way of holding the weapon during this phase, and if not, there is a "natural" way of carrying it.

I do agree that within that prescribed way, there is variation. I like the fact that the Pendraken ACW has two or more poses in each "advancing" pack. I would also say that the Polish offerings from Pendraken suggest to me street fighting rather than say advancing over open country.

However I don't think Pendraken will be launching a "Polish WWII - hasty retreat" range soon.

I'll be honest, the poses in the Polish range are not my preferred. Will that stop me buying them? Probably not.

However, this (hijacked?) thread has made me think about the way troops move.

[Dave]

Good point John, I hadn't looked at it in that way for extra infantry poses, in the past money dicated the number of poses - so running, firing - mixed standing kneeling and prone, advancing, yes with the support weapons - Ive done this with the Lewis gunners in the ww1 range - possibly done too many figures as the prone don't sell!!!  Some figures like the ww2 French cavalry I've only done 1 mounted and 1 dismounted - I cann't see a great deal of sales.

Dave


No, no prone please Dave, except perhaps were crewed weapons need it - typically LMGs firing.  

On variety, there are eight different marching and eight different advancing figures in the new ACW range.  This variety makes all the difference, I think, when putting an interesting stand of figures together, unless figures are just going to be convenient 'handles' with which to move 'counters'.      

Variety is even more important for modern ranges, in my opinion.  Here is an example of six different poses of men running.

For the prone figures I was thinking of the falklands range - were they are only specialist weapons lmg teams, bazooka etc more poses, I've tried to address this with the ww1, but can see I need more with more officers.

Dave

[Dave]

For the prone figures I was thinking of the falklands range - were they are only specialist weapons lmg teams, bazooka etc more poses, I've tried to address this with the ww1, but can see I need more with more officers.

Dave

Also doing both standing and prone firing AKA lewis gunners

Dave

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Soldiers are taught to use specific positions, so a Lee Enfield is carried across the chest but down to the right, whilst an SLR is carried muzzle down with the but in the shoulder.

IanS

[Chris Pringle]

Isn't a more significant omission the 'numpty'? Most non-professional infantry sections will have one. Should be sculpted with kit askew, helmet either tipped back off his forehead or forward over his eyes, puttees unraveling, vital equipment falling out of his pockets, etc.

Chris

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

And, unless he's shot by his own side, will be the one with all the medals!

[John Cook]

Soldiers are taught to use specific positions, so a Lee Enfield is carried across the chest but down to the right, whilst an SLR is carried muzzle down with the but in the shoulder.

IanS

You know, come to think of it, I don't actually recall being 'taught' how to hold an SLR.  I suppose I must have been - we are talking more than forty years ago - and just don't remember.  I do remember being taught to fire left-handed - why would I do that?

[John Cook]

Isn't a more significant omission the 'numpty'? Most non-professional infantry sections will have one. Should be sculpted with kit askew, helmet either tipped back off his forehead or forward over his eyes, puttees unraveling, vital equipment falling out of his pockets, etc.

Chris

Indeed, the Pte Pike figure

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

I do remember being taught to fire left-handed - why would I do that?

It must have been painful - the ejector straight down the front of your shirt. It's done for street fighting - so you can hide behind both left and right hand corners.

IanS