Are the fantasists taking over?

[Chris Pringle]

If the fantasists are taking over (and I'm not aware that they are), then whose fault is that? Are historical gamers unable to make historical games attractive enough to compete with fantasy games for the attention and enthusiasm of players? At our club I have actually managed to recruit one lad from the realms of fantasy, who is now firmly convinced of the merits of historical battles in a non-tournament format ("pointless games" as he wittily dubbed them). But Ithoriel makes sound points about the appeal of fantasy games, which are geared very effectively towards entertainment and relatively instant gratification, by comparison with which some historical games can require more effort and risk the rivet-counters as Ithoriel says. (Guilty - sorry - can't help myself sometimes ... but there just weren't that many T-34/57s ever used ...)

Personally although I prefer historical battles, I have no objection fantasy games - I actually find them more appealing than tournament games with nominally historical armies - and I have happily played plenty of fantasy stuff of various kinds. If that's what people want to play, then unless and until it means I can't get a table or find an opponent for a historical game at the club, I don't see the problem.

BTW Luddite, mate, I have to disagree about all wargaming being primarily fantasy. Yes, we have imperfect knowledge of historical events, and yes, we have imperfect knowledge of how combat actually resolves itself. But that does not mean that it is an impossible fantasy to set up a historical battle in such a way as to present the players with a situation that is firmly grounded in historical fact, confronts them with tactical choices that reflect historical factors, and gives them real insight into how and why a historical battle took the course it did. There are plenty of battles for which we have very good information about how many troops were where and when, with what weapons, the relative performance of those weapons, what the terrain and weather were like, morale and command qualities, indeed all the significant factors to a sufficient degree to be able to model the historical situation plausibly. Trying out a different plan from the one used historically - attacking on the left instead of the right, or whatever - doesn't make the game fantasy, it may help you to understand why they used the plan they did (because of terrain difficulties, time/space considerations, etc) and thereby give you a better historical appreciation.

A historical wargame scenario may be imperfect history, but that does not make it fantasy.

Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk/

[Leman]

When I started this thread I wondered how long it would be before the old chestnut of "all wargaming is fantasy" would crop up. I beg to differ. Panzergrenadiers are not fantasy; zombie panzergrenadiers definitely are. There is also the point that if fantasy 'unleashes the imagination' then if you're going to photon blast my fairies, then I imagine my fairies are immune to photon blasts because photon blasts temporarily turn them into giant photon blaster devouring werewolves who cause the photon blaster operatives to hallucinate, see pink reptillian flying elephantine mammoths and flee. Imagine the surprise of my opponent.

[Bodvoc]

For me, wargaming is one hobby whatever period of history or fantasy or sci-fi I am playing. My 28mm Impetus gauls have been pushed back in the painting queue becuase of my current enthusiasm for Warband. My friends are also trying to get me into 15mm Rapid Fire and 28mm ECW Baroque Impetus. I am currently reading a Joe Abercrombie Fantasy novel as well as Peter Youngs History of the ECW and I am one happy wargamer.

[ronan]

(...) No dry, dusty tomes to read. (...)

How sad ...

[Orcs]

As a person who just may have the odd Orc or two in his collection I would just like to point out that all of mine are painted historically correctly, as swarthy dark skinned chaps,  laid down by his worthyness JRR tolkien.

Orcs in any shade of green however are "Fantasy"

More seriously, we play this game for FUN.  I collect armies for the periods that appeal to me, but will happily play any period and with a few exceptions any ruleset.

Anothers preference of period is not wrong just different. Fantasy is just another period in my book.

[Orcs]

There's fantasy and there's fantasy.

Goblins and hobbits and trolls (oh boy!) I left behind in about 1982

I don't think you did - You reguarly address me on this forum 

[Ithoriel]

Providing your fairies have accurately pointed up their transformation and damage immunity abilities I don't have a problem with that, though I may rue my decision to arm my orange-and-blue anthropomorphised orcas with photon blasters rather than pulse disrupters

I've come across plenty of fantasy panzergrenadiers in my half a century of gaming but, so far, no zombie ones .... time yet though!

For me Fantasy and Sci-Fi are just other periods alongside Ancients, WW2 or Napoleonics.

[fsn]

I imagine my fairies are immune to photon blasts because photon blasts temporarily turn them into giant photon blaster devouring werewolves who cause the photon blaster operatives to hallucinate, see pink reptillian flying elephantine mammoths and flee. Imagine the surprise of my opponent.

Would you like one of my pills?

[petercooman]

Same here, i have scifi, fantasy and historical, and they are all fun! I had the most fun in my young years pitching napoleons troops against dinosaurs and vietnam era soldiers versus king kong!

And think of how many historical variants have come out of a fantasy game like warmaster  

The only thing to consider is your own interests, you buy and play what you like!

Would you like one of my pills?

I'll have a green one please dear lad!

[KTravlos]

Is it fantasists or is it skirmish gaming that is getting popular?

Most glossy skirmish games are fantasy/sci fi ones, so you might be seeing this more than anything.

Anyway those fantasy players may be future historical wargamers. I would not worry.

[Luddite]

A historical wargame scenario may be imperfect history, but that does not make it fantasy.

Opinions differ.  

And that's fine.  

The only problem i ever have with this old and probably endless debate is the idea (either implicit or explicit) that historical gaming is worthy whereas fantasy and sci fi gaming isn't.  I just don't see that as valid.  It still rears its head at the table with snide comments when fantasy or sci fi is on show. 

Its all playing (fantasy gaming) with toy solders whether your toys are Voltiguers or orcs.

As long as its fun, who cares?

[petercooman]

As long as its fun, who cares?

That's the spirit!

[fsn]

How does fantasy compare with, say AVBCW? Or indeed my current project "somewhere in the Middle East, 1960"? Certainly, I hope my Ontoses Ontosi M48's will behave as well as I can mimic in 10mm, but surely my project is "fantasy"? I've just reread High Crusade and am wondering about a medieval vs alien game.

I'm still not going to but ents, trolls or dwarves. It just doesn't float my boat. Neither does the Indian mutiny nor the LoFA nor Macedonians. 

As long as its fun, who cares?

Wot he said.

[cbr3d.com]

Undoubtedly the release by PD of Warband will create a flow of new non-historic wargamers onto the forum, and let us not make any bones about it the number of gamers who consider themselves 'fantasy' and 'SF' wargamers within the hobby both far exceed the number who consider themselves 'historical' wargamers.  My own interests are mainly 'historical', but I acknowledge that the wargaming market is a plethora of different wargaming genres and PD have to exist in the market place as is.  I am not concerned that we may over the coming months end up with literally hundreds (if not thousands) of new members on the forum who basically are interested in Warband fantasy.  In my view one of the great strengths of the new Warband fantasy rules and this forum is that they both encourage players to create new army lists, many of which will be based using existing PD historic figure ranges.  This will create a win - win situation for both historic and fantasy players as it 'hopefully' will encourage PD to continue expanding the historic figure ranges available knowing that the customer market for such figures has increased by the addition of fantasy buyers for the new figures /ranges.

PD is also re-releasing Future Commander in the BKC range of rules, this will undoubtedly also mean many new figure ranges in the SF genre.  Again though this will have (IMO) more benefits than drawbacks as some of the SF gamers will also be already interested or will become interested in the BKC historic rules, thereby expanding the number base of players for the historic BKC rulesets.  This will hopefully again encourage PD to continue to produce new figures and ranges.

We have to remember that Dave and Leon have to live in the real world and actually not only recoup their investments but also make a profit, but above all also look to take into account growth of the business so that in 1,  2, 5, or even 10 years time we are all still able to come on here and buy our own particular chosen type of wargaming miniatures.

Here endeth the Party Political Broadcast for the PD manufacturers and gamers party!  

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

I started in Fantasy, went historical, then back...
Love it all (except 28mm Zombie-Vampire-Cowboys)!