A question about English Civil War colours

[Plasticoutsider]

Hello,

I've done a bit of searching but can't find details of the flags carried by Denzil Holles' regiment, specifically at Edgehill.  I know they wore red coats, but wondered if anyone had details of the flags.  Thanks in advance, and best of wishes for this Yuletide.

B

[Sandinista]

I have no details about the colours, but his regiment seems an interesting choice to model given their very brief history? Are you recreating the armies just for refighting Edgehill?

cheers
Ian

[Plasticoutsider]

Trying to.  Starting with Ballard's brigade, then working up from there.  Has anyone else done Edgehill recently?

[Sandinista]

I chose to do the early war in Yorkshire, Fairfax's v Newcastle. I learnt a lot researching that as well 

Cheers
Ian

[Subedai]

Going through Young's Edgehill, 1642 and Scott, Turton and von Arn's Edgehill, the Battle Reinterpreted there is no mention of any specific colours apart from red coats. The latter volume says that the regiment was initially 1,200 strong but had detached 400 as commanded musketeers at the battle (p.58).

Googling the family coat of arms Holles' came up with black field, white diagonal line (top left to bottom right) with three red circles on it. a dog -similar to Talbot's- in the the upper part of the field and a fish rampant(?) in the lower, both in white. Sorry, my knowledge of heraldic terms is not all that clever.

Perhaps he used a white field with a red pile wavy for the major and increasing numbers of circles for the captain's colours. If nobody knows for sure it's an educated guess using contemporary heraldic styles.

[Plasticoutsider]

Going through Young's Edgehill, 1642 and Scott, Turton and von Arn's Edgehill, the Battle Reinterpreted there is no mention of any specific colours apart from red coats. The latter volume says that the regiment was initially 1,200 strong but had detached 400 as commanded musketeers at the battle (p.58).

Googling the family coat of arms Holles' came up with black field, white diagonal line (top left to bottom right) with three red circles on it. a dog -similar to Talbot's- in the the upper part of the field and a fish rampant(?) in the lower, both in white. Sorry, my knowledge of heraldic terms is not all that clever.

Perhaps he used a white field with a red pile wavy for the major and increasing numbers of circles for the captain's colours. If nobody knows for sure it's an educated guess using contemporary heraldic styles.

Thanks so much for this.  Here's the pike bit just finished.  I'll sort out the flag now - I quite like the black and white idea.  Really appreciate your input on this.

[Plasticoutsider]

Went with a red pile wavy as suggested

[mollinary]

Hi PC, nice work!

Subedai's ideas are great, but he missed out a tiny bit of info about the "standard, Venn" system that most wargamers use for their flags.  First, size. Infantry colours for this period are huge, and seem to have averaged about 6ft 6inches square ( about 2sq.metres). In many representations the pole is much smaller than later periods, not significantly longer than the flag itself - you may have seen the Italian Renaissance flags used at the Pallio?   In the Venn system the Colonel's colour is usually a sheet of a single colour, with no marks at all, although some seem to have contained a single device or motto. The Lt.Colonel's was also plain, but had a Red Cross of St George on a white field in the top corner next to the pole. This feature would then reappear on all the other flags, including the major's. It is similar to the later Union flag in the corner of  British regimental flags of the 18th-19th centuries. The major could have the pile wavy issuing from the bottom corner of this "canton", the other captains a number of symbols, either geometric or heraldic, chosen by the colonel.  Hope this helps, and good luck with the project.  Peter Young's book, although old, is still a great start for Edgehill, as it includes material on all the individual regiments, plus some speculation you need to be careful of!   There is also a "Forlorn Hope" guide on Edgehill by David Frampton and Peter Garnham. It was published to commemorate the 350th anniversary and is a small paperback pamphlet packed with stuff for the wargamer. Caliver may have a copy. You might also look for the similar sized pamphlet "ECW Flags and Colours 1:English Foot" by Stuart Peachey and Les Prince, published by Partizan Press. Again Caliver may be your best starting point to look for this.   Hope this helps,

Mollinary
PS have just checked Caliver's huge catalogue on ECW and the Edgehill guide is still available at £5.99 and the flags one at £10.99. But beware when you go on the site, it is addictive!

[Subedai]

Hi PC, nice work!

Subedai's ideas are great, but he missed out a tiny bit of info about the "standard, Venn" system that most wargamers use for their flags.  First, size. Infantry colours for this period are huge, and seem to have averaged about 6ft 6inches square ( about 2sq.metres). In many representations the pole is much smaller than later periods, not significantly longer than the flag itself - you may have seen the Italian Renaissance flags used at the Pallio?   In the Venn system the Colonel's colour is usually a sheet of a single colour, with no marks at all, although some seem to have contained a single device or motto. The Lt.Colonel's was also plain, but had a Red Cross of St George on a white field in the top corner next to the pole. This feature would then reappear on all the other flags, including the major's. It is similar to the later Union flag in the corner of  British regimental flags of the 18th-19th centuries. The major could have the pile wavy issuing from the bottom corner of this "canton", the other captains a number of symbols, either geometric or heraldic, chosen by the colonel.  Hope this helps, and good luck with the project.  Peter Young's book, although old, is still a great start for Edgehill, as it includes material on all the individual regiments, plus some speculation you need to be careful of!   There is also a "Forlorn Hope" guide on Edgehill by David Frampton and Peter Garnham. It was published to commemorate the 350th anniversary and is a small paperback pamphlet packed with stuff for the wargamer. Caliver may have a copy. You might also look for the similar sized pamphlet "ECW Flags and Colours 1:English Foot" by Stuart Peachey and Les Prince, published by Partizan Press. Again Caliver may be your best starting point to look for this.   Hope this helps,

Mollinary
PS have just checked Caliver's huge catalogue on ECW and the Edgehill guide is still available at £5.99 and the flags one at £10.99. But beware when you go on the site, it is addictive!

Ah, whoops! Sorry PC my fault, I assumed you already knew about the St George's in the top corner next to the standard pole.

Mollinary's mention of Stuart Peachey reminded me that there is another book I forgot I had -Old Robin's Foot by Stuart Peachey and Alan Turton. It has a mass of info in it including the fact that the remnants of Holles' Foote were transferred to Skippon's Regiment in Nov. 42.

Could only find it on Amazon:-
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Old-Robins-Foot-Equipping-Campaigns/dp/0946525307

Nice looking figures by the way. I have a large 15mm Essex's Army and the beginnings of the same army in 6mm. 

[Sandinista]

Pendraken sell sheets of ECW flags produced by me which are not yet listed on the website but sold at shows.
There are 2 sheets for Earl of Essex's Army the 1st has Earl of Essex's, Ogilby's, Lord Brookes, Cunningham's and Davis' regiments. The 2nd has Holbourne's, Aldrich's and 3 unknown regiments. There are 5 flags for each regiment per sheet, all based on information found in the pamphlet "ECW Flags and Colours 1:English Foot" by Stuart Peachey and Les Prince.
The other sheets they sell are Eastern Association, 2 sheets for the London Trained Bands, 2 sheets for the King's Oxford army, Newcastle's Army, Waller's Army, New Model Army, Montrose's army, 2 sheets of Covenanters, plus a sheet of 5 other Royalist regiments.

Cheers
Ian

[Sandinista]

Skippon's regiment is on the NMA sheet

Cheers
Ian

[Plasticoutsider]

Thanks everyone for all the input on this.  The flag was knocked up in two minutes from tin foil so can be replaced easily.  Any excuse to buy new books is good enough for me!  I was thinking of getting hold of Peachy's pamphlet (I looked for a copy recently and could only find one on Amazon for 12.99 which seemed a bit steep.  I'll look more closely at the publisher site today.
Really appreciate all the feedback.  Any more reading suggestions greatly received.  I think Ballard's regiment is up next...

[Plasticoutsider]

Pendraken sell sheets of ECW flags produced by me which are not yet listed on the website but sold at shows.
There are 2 sheets for Earl of Essex's Army the 1st has Earl of Essex's, Ogilby's, Lord Brookes, Cunningham's and Davis' regiments. The 2nd has Holbourne's, Aldrich's and 3 unknown regiments. There are 5 flags for each regiment per sheet, all based on information found in the pamphlet "ECW Flags and Colours 1:English Foot" by Stuart Peachey and Les Prince.
The other sheets they sell are Eastern Association, 2 sheets for the London Trained Bands, 2 sheets for the King's Oxford army, Newcastle's Army, Waller's Army, New Model Army, Montrose's army, 2 sheets of Covenanters, plus a sheet of 5 other Royalist regiments.

Cheers
Ian

These sound ace by the way.  Do you know how I can get hold of a set without attending a show? 

[Sandinista]

These sound ace by the way.  Do you know how I can get hold of a set without attending a show?  

Just e-mail or PM Leon, I am not sure what the price is but is quite cheap 

[Plasticoutsider]

Just e-mail or PM Leon, I am not sure what the price is but is quite cheap 

Brilliant!  Will do.