Help me decide - SYW

[Shecky]

I've decided to take the plunge into 10mm SYW. I've ordered a Prussian and Austrian army pack and they are currently in transit (yea me!).

Here's my quandary and where I'm seeking the forum's expert opinions  - I don't know what rules to use.

Here are my requirements:
1. must be able to recreate the significant battles, not just portions of them.
1.a. As the Prussians tended to be outnumbered in most significant battles, yet they managed to win some of them, they must allow for an able player the ability to win as the outnumbered Prussians.

2. must be able to represent the units with around 5-600 figures per side. If I go the way I did when I collected 15mm SYW, I'll have forces for Prussia, Austria, France, Britain and Russia (plus Hanoverians, Imperial and other minor German states), so keeping each side to around 5-600 would be ideal.

3. must be able to handle multiple players per side so I can run it as a participation game at a convention.

4. number of figures on a stand does not matter - i.e. no combat resolution based on the number of figures in a unit.

I've played Might and Reason and at one time actually enjoyed the game. However I've soured a bit on them as in my gaming group no one wants to fight against the Prussians because of their too many built in advantages. Plus, I'm in a gaming phase where I'm not so keen on whole unit removal.

I have Maurice but haven't played it. It does not look like it can handle multiple (more than 2) players per side. Although I can be convinced otherwise. Plus I may want a few more units on the table than what it recommends.

Koenig Krieg is out because it requires figure counting and probably can't handle large battles.

Black Powder? How does that handle a numerically inferior Prussian army?

Age of Reason? No. Piquet and it's variants? While I want to like the rules I know I can't convince my gaming group to play. Volley & Bayonet? too generic.

My current favorite rules are Altar of Freedom, which is an ACW set of rules. I have put much thought into converting them for SYW. As they focus on a commander's characteristics and the combat mechanism is very simple, I think they only require a few tweaks to fit in the SYW.

With the requirements stated above, what would you recommend and why? If I've turned my nose at your favorite, what would you say to convince me to give them a try?

Thanks,
Shecky

[fred.]

 Black Powder is very generic, and we found the movement so fast and so random as to create a strange game ( and we have played loads of Warmaster and Hail Ceaser). BP would need a lot of mods to represent SYW

Maurice - has some interesting stuff, but we stopped playing as the card mechanism forces you to keep playing cards on the main firefight in the battle, and therefore large chunks stand around doing nothing. To be multi player you need more decks of cards and really just end up with parallel games. Probably not best for convention games as has a lot of new mechanisms

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hello Shecky

It's been more than seven years since I've played any 7YW but people I've spoken with recommend Might & Reason (http://sammustafa.com/mr.html). Copy of QRS here http://sammustafa.com/Resources/MR%20QRS.pdf, - usually you can tell from the QRS of any rule set, whether the rule set 'fits' you. It's a brigade scale game with national characteristics.

Of course, you can always follow my cheapskate lead and always check out the Free Wargames Wiki to see what's available. I just had a quick look and there are many 18C rules available:-
http://freewargamesrules.wikia.com/wiki/Category:18th_Century

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[kustenjaeger]

Greetings

King of the Battlefield might work, though I think you'd have to have a lot of figures for a big SYW battle. Units are a regiment with three stands per unit. They are fast play and designed for club/participation games.  In 15mm they are 6 foot figures per 3cm square base but I imagine one can alter the measurements/figure numbers easily as there is no magic to the figure numbers. 

There is a yahoo group which has some accounts of games.  I've got a copy but not yet played them.

Regards

Edward

[Hertsblue]

If you want to use very large numbers of figures per side (one thousand and upwards), you may like to have a look at these:

http://rulesdepot.net/page63.html

[toxicpixie]

We use Pike & Shot with the "and Blenheim Palace" mods (with a couple of tweaks to them!), and that works nicely for WSS era; would probably work fine with BP for SYW if you restrict the movement somewhat (which "&BlenP" does anyway). Couple of the guys have started with "Maurice" and reckon it's really good - so we're going to give them a bash.

They reckon it should cope with a multiplayer game ok - fred, we're happy with needing multiple decks of cards for it, but I'd be interested in more detail of how it works multiplayer if you can, as it's the primary thing we're after

[T13A]

Hi Shecky

Have a look at 'Age of Honor'. They come from the 'Fire and Fury' and 'Age of Eagles' stable. Personally my favourite group of wargame rules. They are brigade level and seem to fit your requirements (although combat is based on the number of bases in a brigade, in particular they are great for big multi player games). I base my Pendraken French and Allied armies in two ranks of three infantry figures and 3 cavalry per base (using the standard 15mm size bases in the rules).

Incidentally I have just started to use Altar of Freedom rules for my 6mm ACW and am really enjoying them.

Cheers Paul

[Hwiccee]

You could try the Polemos SYW rules but unfortunately these are not out until early next year (or maybe late this year). We use these in 10mm and 15mm.

With the requirements stated above, what would you recommend and why? If I've turned my nose at your favorite, what would you say to convince me to give them a try?

I am involved in these rules so I am not exactly unbiased and so I will avoid comment generally and just answer your specific points. The only thing I will say is that these rules are based on a more modern view of Frederick and his wars (it does the War of Austrian Succession as well) than all the other rules you mention. So Frederick is more 'the Above Average' or 'the Good' than 'the Great'. The Prussian units have some advantages but they are mainly 'average' (although this depends on period of course). They have some advantages that you have to work to take advantage of - i.e. they are good at manoeuvre, etc.

1. must be able to recreate the significant battles, not just portions of them.

The rules have 2 scales and use bases/stands. In the lower scale 1 stand = 1 battalion and in the large scale 1 base = a brigade (2500 inf/1200 cav). So in the larger scale, the one you would use to fight big battles, the full armies (for Frederick's battles) are usually 20 to 30 bases plus generals.

In this larger scale there are no army lists as such. You just use the full historical army and each list is basically a list of the troops at a particular battle.

1.a. As the Prussians tended to be outnumbered in most significant battles, yet they managed to win some of them, they must allow for an able player the ability to win as the outnumbered Prussians.

The modern view is that for most, but not all, of Frederick's battles he is not significantly outnumbered. Frederick often claimed that he was but modern research has disproved this. So for example the wiki page on Leuthen says he has 36,000 vs. 80,000 Austrians & allies - this is based on the old view mainly derived from Frederick himself. But Duffy says it was about 40,000 vs. maybe 50,000 Austrians - this is based on actual research. The Austrian advantage was in low quality troops and light troops. In short the battle is actually very even.

In general you will find that Frederick's battles are quite even although of course there are exceptions, both ways. You should be able to win but you are going to have to work at it - a 'typical' battle would see a slighty better but slightly outnumber Prussian army. The main problem is going to be the Prussian armies not commanded by Frederick. They are often greatly outnumbered and in addition often have rubbish units

2. must be able to represent the units with around 5-600 figures per side. If I go the way I did when I collected 15mm SYW, I'll have forces for Prussia, Austria, France, Britain and Russia (plus Hanoverians, Imperial and other minor German states), so keeping each side to around 5-600 would be ideal.

As already mentioned everything is done by bases/stands. You can put whatever you like on a stand but I would expect that in 10mm you will put circa 12-16 infantry/6-8 cavalry/1-2 guns. But as everything is measured by the frontage of the stands you use there is nothing to stop you using bigger or smaller stands with a different number of figures on.

3. must be able to handle multiple players per side so I can run it as a participation game at a convention.

This would be fine. In the big Prussina battles you usually have 3 or 4 generals per side so you could do 1 player per general.

4. number of figures on a stand does not matter - i.e. no combat resolution based on the number of figures in a unit.

No figure removal - a whole stand is removed.

[Leman]

Well having read that lot all I can offer is try something that fits your requirements and see if you like it. You won't like my favourite which is Field of Battle 2nd Edition as it is derived from Piquet.

[Malbork]

All this reading has stirred a vague memory of a set called Minden Rose that I used quite a few years ago for 15mm Prussian v Austrian clashes; Worked quite well at the time but not sure it meets all yoru criteria or is even still available.

Also dabbled in the SYW variant of old Shako, which was not so sophisticated but gave a fun game. Again I'm not sure that this would tick all the boxes...

[mollinary]

Hi Shecky,

I'll try and post a second time, after the system swallowed my previous effort. Volley and Bayonet is worth a look. The original version had mods for a number of periods, including SYW, and Frank Chadwick produced a couple of useful scenario booklets for it.  There is also an excellent Vollay and Bayonet website run by New Zealander Keith McNelly. It is excellent, and if you are interested, it is a good place to start.

Cheers,

Mollinary

[Leman]

Last I heard Minden Rose was available as a free down load. 4 - 6 bases per unit and also includes some large battle scenarios, eg Zorndorf. First rules I used with my 10s, based on one inch square, apart from artillery. They suffer from overly strong Prussians who can do cartwheels whilst the others plod around with cement overshoes. Nearly gave up on SYW as at the time as I only had an Austrian army and didn't win a single battle against the Prussians. FOB2 are much more even handed.

[paulr]

Hi Shecky,

I'll try and post a second time, after the system swallowed my previous effort. Volley and Bayonet is worth a look. The original version had mods for a number of periods, including SYW, and Frank Chadwick produced a couple of useful scenario booklets for it.  There is also an excellent Vollay and Bayonet website run by New Zealander Keith McNelly. It is excellent, and if you are interested, it is a good place to start.

Cheers,

Mollinary

Seconded, the various mods do give a different feel to the games.

[Shecky]

Thanks for the replies so far. I'll try to find out more about the V&B mods. I haven't played V&B in a long time but I remember it being a bit too generic with little command and control.

[paulr]

Thanks for the replies so far. I'll try to find out more about the V&B mods. I haven't played V&B in a long time but I remember it being a bit too generic with little command and control.

There is little command and control, except the need to be in command range, in V&B but that can create plenty of challenges if there aren't many commanders.

Disorder and exhaustion also limit what troops can do.